Taran: July 20, 2019, 8:43pm
This is more of a Sa’am theoretical question than a clinical question –
Toby has said that (paraphrased): When we drain we take something away from the system. Given that improper
draining can potentially be very damaging, Toby mentioned in the Saint Louis class that if you drain from a
substantially deficient channel it may be impossible to get the system back to equilibrium, where does that
something that we take away go?
Donley: July 21, 2019, 12:51am
To the child and grandchild element? To it’s Yin/Yang Pair? To it’s Sa’am pair?
Interesting question.
Taran: July 21, 2019, 12:55am
All seem totally valid. My question is, if any of those are the case, why would it have the potential to be so
incredibly detrimental? It would seem that if it stayed in the system it would be more recoverable. But it sounds
like that may not always be the case.
Donley: July 21, 2019, 1:18am
From what I understand in hearing the St. Louis seminar it’s not un-recoverable. It does push the imbalance of the
Pair further to the extremes. This may complicate the issues because it is then necessary to build up possibly more
than was taken away because by the time the patient is seen again the other systems have taken the Qi and further
pushed the treated channel down by proxy.
I am imagining a hydraulic device forming the 5 element cycle with each organ system being a rod. If you push
one rod down the other 11 go up. If the first rod is already lower than the other and we push it down even further
the other rods go up higher. We have to do more work then to get the original rod to back to where it was, then
further working to bring it up to level. If that makes any sence…
Taran: July 21, 2019, 1:23am
26/01/2024, 11:41Where does it go? – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/where-does-it-go/391/print2/4
Perhaps I misunderstood Toby’s rap during the St Louis seminar. I remember it sounding more extreme than how
you remember it. I am listening to it again, but haven’t gotten to that conversation yet. Thanks for your
explanation. It’s a great image!
Donley: July 21, 2019, 1:35am
My understanding is that it is extreme for the moment and near future, possibly weeks, but not unrecoverable.
michaelmax: July 22, 2019, 4:44pm
Hey Guys… this is a really good question.
I’m not sure “where” that qi goes. I do know that there was the example of the acupuncturist using this on herself
and she drained her PC and ended up with ongoing palpitations.
Can someone recover? Depends on how strong they were to begin with.
My sense is that something is being removed from the patient. Like letting air out of tire, instead of rebalance it
when it wobbles.
Taran: July 22, 2019, 5:52pm
That is my sense as well. It makes me wonder about something we were taught in school, it was credited to Van
Nghi, but I don’t have a reference, and Dr Marshall was certainly known for . . . creativity.
Yang shu antique points have an inductive quality. They are related to inducing phasically associated qi from the
environment.
Yin shu antique points have a regulatory quality on the interior dynamics of the system.
I would love to hear @Tobydaly1’s thoughts!
KristinWisgirda: July 22, 2019, 6:49pm
Taran:
I remember it sounding more extreme26/01/2024, 11:41Where does it go? – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/where-does-it-go/391/print3/4
T’s St Louis rap on the consequences of inappropriate draining was more dire than I remember hearing previously.
Maybe a strategy to emphasize the dangers to overeager students? Even though he has repeatedly cautioned against
it, he keeps hearing stories of newbies experimenting with it. The stronger voice might be coming out of
frustration.
Taran: July 22, 2019, 7:59pm
Good to know. Is the older version tempered enough that it sounds like resources simply get moved around rather
than somehow leaving the system?
michaelmax: July 22, 2019, 9:38pm
My sense is that indeed, something is taken out of the system. It’s not just rearranged. It’s been removed.
And yes, I think Toby has been placing more emphasis on NOT draining in the more recent classes.
Of course, we are doing some draining even in the process of tonifying. And I think we have seen results that
stunned us, both good and bad. So there is a significant upside when we get it right and a notable downside if we
don’t.
With draining, the downside is more than notable. Imagine a case where you got it wrong and didn’t catch it.
Remember how badly it went for the patient? Now take that bad result and multiply by even as little as a factor of
two.
I’ve been using this stuff for a year now. About 6 months into it a drained a few times. I did not get the stellar
results I was expecting with any of the patients. Which lead me thinking that I’d not dialed in the right channel.
And with one patient who’d been a regular…she just stopped coming. I’m not sure if it was related to the
treatment, but it did get my attention.
For me at this point. Until I feel like I have some sense of competence with just using the tonifying method. I’m
staying away from draining. Again, simply tonifying the wrong channel can really take someone in a bad direction.
But that can be reversed. Imagine doing something that you could not remedy.
I think it easy to think acupuncture is not harmful as we’ve for the most part learned and practiced methods that are
primarily harmonizing. But Sa’am is the opposite of harmonizing. So we need to adjust our thinking.
Taran: July 22, 2019, 10:09pm
@michaelmax I am all for not draining in clinic!26/01/2024, 11:41Where does it go? – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/where-does-it-go/391/print4/4
And, prior to @KristinWisgirda’s previous response, I have had the sense that we are talking about removing
something from the system. This is what prompted my query.
So here’s a variation on the “Where does it go?” question – how does it get removed from the system?
Donley: July 23, 2019, 4:16am
It is scary to think of letting the Qi out of the patient! I don’t think I’ll be trying that anytime soon!