Ryan_Gallagher: October 18, 2019, 3:49pm
Any thoughts on turning a breech baby with Sa’am? I can provide more deets in the future, but for now:
The patient is in week 34. She’s 36 yo; it’s her first preg; and she used IUI.
Pregnancy has been very smooth overall.
She’s obese; damp inside and out.
Lately, she’s been feeling achey in the pelvis (anterior and posterior) as the baby has grown.
She’s been getting some rosacea.
Prone to insomnia (fitful sleep) and anxiety (both before and during pregnancy).
Can have variable stool, but that’s been normal recently.
Runs sl warm.
Historically prone to PMS, cramping.
Before pregnancy, I’d supplement LI and SI.
The grossest thing in the room (beyond the fetal malposition, which I’m not directly perceiving) is her dampness
and her tendency toward stagnation (which might indeed be contributing to the malposition). I could supplement LI
or SI, or promote descent of the baby’s head by supplementing ST, but I’m leery because these are all channels to
avoid during pregnancy. But maybe they’re warranted in this case? Any thoughts, beyond moxa’ing ol’ BL67?
michaelmax: October 20, 2019, 4:50am
Good Question @Ryan_Gallagher.
Of course UB67 is “famous” for turning babies. And I don’t know about you, but I have not heard of any other
method for doing this.
Putting on my Saam hat I think a lot about constitution and if the patient’s normal zheng qi via their constitution is
supported, then perhaps natural processes like pregnancy will go smoother.
I’d be a little careful with SI unless you were seeing lots of signs of stagnation.
Wet inside and out… that does get me thinking about +LI. I’m curious as to why you think it is contraindicated
here.
You mention her anxiety and fitful sleep. You can consider +PC for that, and I perhaps if she mellows out, then the
baby will feel more comfortable coming into this world.25/01/2024, 11:21Turning a Breech Baby with Sa’am – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/turning-a-breech-baby-with-saam/696/print2/4
ngmatthews: October 4, 2021, 5:15pm
Last week I had a breech turn after one treatment in my office so I’m feeling good about the subject. I used an
intradermal needle (hinaishin) briefly on B 67 to activate the point, and then 15 direct Japanese thread moxas on
the point to kick start the treatment. I consider that a fairly strong supplementation treatment. I sent the woman
home and the breech turned over night, before she had a chance to do the home moxa stick thing.
So, I agree that using the UB makes the most sense in this case. I think the cooling nature of UB would be helpful
for insomnia and anxiety here. I would not worry about increasing dampness at the moment, since the nature of
pregnancy is damp increasing inside. Leave that for later. Maybe you should try the Saam UB supplementation and
let us know how it goes.
Ryan_Gallagher: October 20, 2019, 10:03pm
Thanks for the insights, folks.
Michael, the reason I’m generally hesitant to supplement LI during pregnancy is because, as Laura suggests, babies
like dampness. My hypothesis, however, is that this mom’s excessive dampness might be actually stagnating the
descent of the baby’s head…so maybe +LI is, in fact, warranted.
Laura, I hear what you’re saying about supplementing UB, but if I’m diagnosing abundant dampness as the
problem, I’m wondering about the possibility that supplementing UB will worsen it.
I gave her a non-Sa’am treatment yesterday. I’ll see her again in a week, and will hopefully have more clarity
around a Sa’am treatment by that time…
ngmatthews: October 4, 2021, 5:15pm
Actually, I did not really say that babies ‘like’ dampness. I meant that with the amniotic fluid and the fact that most
women gain weight during pregnancy, it is an internal damp condition by definition. That said, I’m not sure that
supplementing UB once would make things worse. I’d like to hear what Toby has to say about this. Actually, I
remember him talking in a podcast about GYN patients and saying that no matter what their western diagnosis, we
should still treat the pattern we see through the Saam lens. That said, I wonder if treating her constitutionally would
turn the breech.
KristinWisgirda: October 20, 2019, 11:35pm
Here are my notes on Saam in pregnancy, from classes and podcasts:25/01/2024, 11:21Turning a Breech Baby with Sa’am – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/turning-a-breech-baby-with-saam/696/print3/4
Don’t use SI+. If there are concerns about blood stasis in pregnancy, T says that H+ and Liv + is a safer combo.
Be careful about supplementing UB because babies like it warm. My notes say that Toby can’t remember ever
supplementing UB in pregnancy.
Babies like it wet, so be cautious about LI+. Don’t use it too much.
Nothing specific about turning breech.
Good old UB67 with moxa is so reliable, I haven’t tried Saam yet for breech.
Ryan_Gallagher: November 5, 2019, 7:30pm
Update:
Supplemented LI and did rice-grain moxa on BL67…no change.
The next week, supplemented SI and did rice-grain moxa on BL67…and the baby turned!
michaelmax: November 7, 2019, 1:39am
Thanks for this update @Ryan_Gallagher.
We know SI gets things moving and it sounds like here… especially with moxa on UB67, it gets things moving the
right way.
Of course, need more data points.
I’m curious, any particularly signs of stasis…qi or blood with this patient?25/01/2024, 11:21Turning a Breech Baby with Sa’am – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/turning-a-breech-baby-with-saam/696/print4/4
KristinWisgirda: November 7, 2019, 4:24pm
Ryan_Gallagher:
Supplemented LI and did rice-grain moxa on BL67…no change.
Sharon Weizenbaum teaches that breech presentation often happens in women with “crappy blood”= some combo
of blood xu and blood stasis. This has proven out in my clinical experience.
At the end of pregnancy, so many women can have edema and feel so heavy, but it is good to look at other signs
and symptoms and not just look to drying. Crappy blood is a cause of edema too, causing water to come out of
right relationship within the blood.
I mention this because Toby has listed LI+ as something to be cautious about during pregnancy. Baby needs
enough amniotic fluid and flexibility of tissue to turn easily, so drying might not be the way to help.
Jeffrey: November 9, 2019, 5:30pm
Master Tung points for tuning a breach one distal and one proximal to Lv 3 (essentially on either side of lv3) bi
laterally, 66.03 & 66.04 Huoying & Huozhu . It works better than UB 67 in my experience.