jedwardian: May 8, 2020, 2:47am
I recently completed the on-demand Sa’am course–thank you Michael and Kristin and all who had a hand in
making that possible–and have been enjoying testing out the system on myself and my long-suffering wife, for
starters (poor thing! ;P). Not surprisingly, results have been noticeable, and so far I find that system quite intuitive.
With one exception: I’m finding it hard to get a handle on the Lung / Stomach pair.
I understand that Lung is moist inside and dry outside, and Stomach is the reverse, and that Lung is full of qi and
resources and Stomach resource-deficient. I’ve noted the Lung 10 area finding as a clinical marker and the point
about the knees. But I’m still having trouble distilling this pair down into the kind of simple binary that’s relatively
easy with the other pairs: Hot/Cold, Damp/Dry, Outward/Inward, etc. With Lung and Stomach, the closest I can
come is Full/Empty. I’m not quite satisfied that that gets at it.
It may be that my own relative stomach excess is clouding my perception here: I have trouble thinking of lung
excess as a problem (we don’t normally talk about “qi excess”). I do sense that tonifying the lung is an ‘inflating’
treatment, and that being overinflated could be a problem–but I’m not sure exactly how this would manifest, except
possibly as a psychological state (and that start to get far afield from what Toby is teaching). But if I’m on the right
track at all with this inflation business, then I suppose supplementing stomach could have the benefit of “de-
flating” i.e. grounding the overinflated person. Beyond that, or very clear channel-location findings, it’s hard for
me to think of a lot of instances where stomach tonification is tempting (who wants to head in the direction of the
greasy, hard-up used car salesman?)
Any thoughts welcome, be they theoretical ideas or clinical case examples.
Thanks, Jonathan
jedwardian: May 8, 2020, 2:55am
Btw I’m being a little tongue-in-cheek about ‘who wants more stomach?’, I do get that some people have lung
excess and need + ST – but I’m having trouble thinking of whom exactly. Even that archetypal banker, what’s he
complaining of besides dry skin?
KristinWisgirda: May 8, 2020, 12:07pm
Welcome to the forum @jedwardian! Your post tells me that you are really chewing on the information from the
class. You are also noticing a bias within yourself which is really important in the clinic. Becoming aware of my
own Saam biases has had huge payoffs personally and professionally.23/01/2024, 12:12Trying to Get a Feel for Lung/Stomach Pair – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/trying-to-get-a-feel-for-lung-stomach-pair/1030/print2/6
Type “Lung Stomach” into the search bar in the upper right corner of the screen and you will find loads of threads
and cases discussing Lung/Stomach. Feel free to add to the conversations and ask for clarification.
jedwardian:
supplementing stomach could have the benefit of “de-flating” i.e. grounding the overinflated person.
I do use the image of over-inflated and under-inflated for Lung excess and Stomach excess respectively. But I
wouldn’t say that supplementing the stomach “grounds the overinflated person.” Pericardium + is the grounding
treatment. Stomach dries the inside and descends (while moistening the outside). The Lung excess patient has too
much on the inside which can lead to symptoms including bloating, phlegmy cough and breathlessness, and grief
held too long.
jedwardian:
who wants to head in the direction of the greasy, hard-up used car salesman?)
Many well-resourced fat, dry skinned people would love to be thinner and have more moisture in their skin. St+
could be a beauty treatment for them! As well it is good to remember that supplementing the counterbalancer in no
way diminishes the super powers of the channel that has been in relative excess. So the Lung excess types can keep
their ability to accumulate resources and get healthier at the same time.
Daniel: May 8, 2020, 12:29pm
I LOVE the fresh richly straightforward energy of thoughtful, inquisitive new practitioners ‘unburdened’ by the
complexity that comes with time. Thank you Jonathan for such an excellent question and Kristin for your
characteristically superb reply. It all helps so much!
yes, Ive had patients who are so wet on the inside, so full of retained moisture and phlegm on the inside they
definitely need and benefit from a good internal drying out.
KristinWisgirda: May 8, 2020, 12:42pm
Daniel:
I LOVE the fresh richly straightforward energy of thoughtful, inquisitive new practitioners ‘unburdened’ by the
complexity that comes with time.
Me too.
I also love what studying this medicine – Saam and TEAM- teaches us about the way life works. The basics can’t23/01/2024, 12:12Trying to Get a Feel for Lung/Stomach Pair – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/trying-to-get-a-feel-for-lung-stomach-pair/1030/print3/6
be restated too many times. Resources need to be processed and must move through us to be physiological.
Without this processing and movement through the Yang Ming tube, they become pathological.
Daniel: May 8, 2020, 12:57pm
KristinWisgirda:
The basics can’t be restated too many times
Ain’t that the truth. Over and over and over again – each time, with new understanding
KristinWisgirda:
Resources need to be processed and must move through us to be physiological. Without this processing and
movement through the Yang Ming tube, they become pathological.
you should write a book Kristin. Perfectly stated
jedwardian: May 8, 2020, 2:49pm
Thanks, Daniel and Kristin, that’s all very helpful. I’ll have a browse through old Lung/Stomach threads for more,
as K suggests.
I don’t know that I’m entirely “unburdened by complexity,” lol, but hey I’ll take it! Enjoying being a total rookie
again with this system.
michaelmax: May 10, 2020, 2:30pm
jedwardian:
But I’m still having trouble distilling this pair down into the kind of simple binary that’s relatively easy with
the other pairs: Hot/Cold, Damp/Dry, Outward/Inward, etc. With Lung and Stomach, the closest I can come is
Full/Empty. I’m not quite satisfied that that gets at it.
HI @jedwardian, welcome and thanks for your thoughtful inquiry.
I understand the appeal in distilling down to essentials and simplifying. Being a bit mentally lazy I’m often
attempting to simplify. Which is why some pairs in Saam are so easy… LI/SP for one. But with LU/ST, we are23/01/2024, 12:12Trying to Get a Feel for Lung/Stomach Pair – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/trying-to-get-a-feel-for-lung-stomach-pair/1030/print4/6
looking at a mixed presentation. There are aspects of both moisture and dryness. Fullness and emptiness.
As to what’s wrong with plenty of LU qi/resources… like anything, too much of anything is not good. Trying
inhaling. Good. Now inhale some more. A little more?? Not possible. We need flow, we need things, experiences,
resources, food, water, money to flow through us. Anything take to an extreme tends to become a problem. You
might have plenty of money resources, but if you don’t know how to spend it and enjoy the experience of flow and
exchange that it brings. Then that kind of a stagnation will cause problems.
As to ST excess. The hard-luck, greasy dude that can’t keep it together is one image. Let me give you another. The
hard working, puts their heart and soul into writer. The person who is always giving, and has some kind of grudge
against receiving financial compensation for their work. The person who thinks money is dirty. They should give,
but they have a hard time receiving. That too is a ST+ presentation. Look at many acupuncturists and you’ll see it
live and in action.
KristinWisgirda:
Resources need to be processed and must move through us to be physiological. Without this processing and
movement through the Yang Ming tube, they become pathological.
Such a poignant reminder @KristinWisgirda. That we need to attend to the flow. That things must move in, and
through. That there is just enough storage, that there is just enough movement and that there is just enough release.
jedwardian: May 10, 2020, 5:03pm
Thanks for this, Michael, especially the re-frame around Stomach excess. Off to give myself a LU+ treatment now
;D
adambroder: May 18, 2020, 5:56pm
I’ve been thinking as well about this pairing. In one of Sharon’s Clarifying Diagnosis videos she describes the
Lung and Stomach archetypes as exactly opposite of what we’ve learned but I think she may have just misspoke.
But further to what I’ve been learning from her (which has been incredibly enlightening and inspiring, after only 4
videos—no wonder people on this forum say that her teaching helps immensely with Sa’am), I see this pair as
more of a directional relationship primarily. The Stomach, in its capacity as a Yangming organ, has a downward
energy, and we can assess the symptoms of LU excess as lacking in that downward pull of the Yangming and
everything that is associated with that in terms of absorption of nutrition. This is not to say that it creates a Bai Hu
Tang pattern per se. I don’t know, I’m grappling with this and it’s not coming out in the way I’m holding it in my
brain. Is this a helpful way to approach the pair, seeing a ST+ tx as primarily downbearing and a LU+ tx as
primarily up bearing?23/01/2024, 12:12Trying to Get a Feel for Lung/Stomach Pair – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/trying-to-get-a-feel-for-lung-stomach-pair/1030/print5/6
KristinWisgirda: May 18, 2020, 10:53pm
I will be taking Sharon’s Graduate Mentorship Program for the third time, starting next year, so have familiarity
with her teaching and am a big fan. @adambroder, so glad to hear that you are exploring her teachings,
adambroder:
she describes the Lung and Stomach archetypes as exactly opposite of what we’ve learned
Each tradition and branch of our wonderful medicine has its own definition of terms. Sometimes there is perfect
agreement but sometimes there is only a partial overlap. The student’s understanding of the teaching is another
factor too. Having studied a number or branches with a number of teachers, my impulse is to work with a system
on its own terms to try to minimize the confusion.
adambroder:
Is this a helpful way to approach the pair, seeing a ST+ tx as primarily downbearing and a LU+ tx as primarily
up bearing?
If this question is asking simply about the directional nature of this pair, then the Answer is Yes.
An aside: Toby did once say that Lung primarily ascends but descends a little as well. I don’t totally understand
what he means here but have used Lung + for severe constipation where the stool was not dry but the morphology
fit perfectly and there were hemorrhoids. Sometimes you need to go up to go down.
If the question is asking about the overall approach to this pair the answer is no, because directionality is only part
of the picture with this pair.
adambroder:
downward pull of the Yangming
My understanding of Sharon’s teaching about the Yangming is not that it has a downward pull, but rather that it
needs to be open through so that things can move downward for physiology to happen. A downward treatment
method is only one of many methods that can be used to open it through. The Yangming also needs to close
appropriately so that good stuff doesn’t leak out.
A long winded suggestion to study each system separately, on it own terms. With time, it will be clear how
studying one informs the other because both are describing the way life works and how to treat effectively.
michaelmax: May 25, 2020, 2:30pm
adambroder:23/01/2024, 12:12Trying to Get a Feel for Lung/Stomach Pair – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/trying-to-get-a-feel-for-lung-stomach-pair/1030/print6/6
Is this a helpful way to approach the pair, seeing a ST+ tx as primarily downbearing and a LU+ tx as primarily
up bearing?
I would say that ST is definitely down bearing, seeing where it is located in the body and thinking of its function it
is clear that its job is to move food downwards. Its job is to empty itself. No wonder ST+ people are always
scrambling and can’t hold onto anything in terms of resources. The ST’s job is to “give it away.”
And I think @KristinWisgirda point is well taken, it’s about having an “open” yangming.
As to Lung. My sense is that it both can ascend and descend. I think it has to do with context and timing. Think
about how the lungs work… they fill and empty. Many lung issues are due to the Lung not descending the qi when
it should. And if you look at the zi wu meridian clock and the flow of qi through the day/year. Then you’ll see that
Metal is about descending qi. So clearly from an understanding of the five phases, there is an aspect of descent for
the Metal/Lung.
That said, there is an ascending aspect. You can feel it for yourself when you inhale. And the Lung (if I remember
correctly) is the commander of qi, and to command qi it means it needs to slowly properly throughout the body in
various contexts and times.
So again, I think there is an aspect of place, tempo and timing when it comes to the directionality of the Lung.