haunani: April 12, 2019, 3:09am
Straight to the point: Has anyone treated the wrong side by accident?
Longer version:
Per @Tobydaly1 suggestion I’ve been needling myself a lot with the Saam method. When I say “a lot” I mean
maybe 1x/week if I can get to it. That’s a lot for me since my schedule with the kids leaves me very little “me
time” throughout the week. With that said, last weekend after listening to one of the Crowdcast videos I realized
I’m so Spleen excess (NOT deficient) and was soooo excited to +LI. So I did…except I realized just this week (5
day later) that I needled the right side…not the left (I am female). I was knocked out instantly and after about 20
minutes came out of my acu-land to remove the needles. I then crawled straight to the couch and was OUT–
LIGHTS OUT style of sleep (deeper than I’ve had in maybe years with two small children). My husband
mentioned I was a zombie the rest of the day. That night I also went to bed early and slept like a log. Since then I
haven’t felt quite “right.” I’m not sure if it’s placebo, if my body is working against all the germs my kids are home
sick with, or if it was the treatment. And possibly it is all of the above. I have NOT had the opportunity to treat the
left side yet. Is this a normal wrong side of the body treatment situation of deep sleep into other dimensions??? At
first I was thinking it was MARVELOUS but after the nearly 20 hours of deeeeeep sleep and not feeling good after
it, I began second guessing myself.
I have soooooo many other questions but will start with this.
KristinWisgirda: April 12, 2019, 3:04pm
Hello,
I am interested to hear Toby’s take on your reaction. My first thought is that treating the “wrong” side when
treating the constitution shouldn’t cause any adverse reactions. If the diagnosis is right, there should be positive
results regardless of the side. Please correct this line of thinking.
I am curious about other factors that may have influenced your reaction. Do you mind writing up your case?
I notice there is a tendency in some new students to flip what they should be treating. To +LI, did you +LI11,
+St36, – LI5, -SI5? The zombie like reaction makes me wonder if you +Sp.
I’ve been tired after some of my Sa’am treatments but have had a sense of well being and improved symptoms that
showed when the treatment was correct. That said, I haven’t always treated myself correctly.
Thanks so much for sharing your experience. Please let us know the details so we all can learn.
dcantor: April 12, 2019, 9:49pm
haunani:26/01/2024, 12:32Treating the wrong side? – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/treating-the-wrong-side/86/print2/7
I realized just this week (5 day later) that I needled the right side…not the left (I am female).
Needling the right side if you are female is the correct side – left is needled for men.
haunani: April 13, 2019, 7:19am
You could absolutely be right in terms of my incorrect self-diagnosis. Self-diagnosing has never been a strong suit
for me.
I did needle +LI 4 point combo on the right side. I remember SI5 being particularly “intense.”
Now seeing @dcantor response that female is the right side (I even went back to listen to Toby’s first interview
with Michael to confirm), I’m curious is maybe I just needed to SLEEP?! Or can deep zombie like sleep be a sign
of wrong treatment too?
@KristinWisgirda …for more detail why I thought I was Spleen excess:
The reason I thought I was Spleen excess is due to Michael and Toby’s conversation on the Crowdcast about
someone who is always coming up with ideas and being super creative but never follows through with the ideas
and creations. This describes me 100%. I’m a habitual creator. In terms of other clues that lead me toward Spleen
excess direction: Historically I’ve always had digestion issues with bloating, irregular appetite (easily lose it but
get hangry very easily as well), and irregular bowel movements (started at age 6 and wasn’t really resolved until I
was in Oriental Medicine school in my late 20’s). Physically I have acne prone skin, oily skin. I am not large or
overweight…although in the past (before my kids) I was always a soft body type. Since having kids my frame has
changed significantly and I am more lean…I’ve always considered this more due to yin and blood deficiency. I still
have low to no appetite but will get low blood sugar or hangry with little notice. Now that I’m typing this out I may
be more of a Lung excess type CURRENTLY…dry on the inside and oily on the out (skin).
dcantor: April 14, 2019, 9:59pm
@haunani My understanding is that a LI Excess individual is more of the creative but scattered person – always
getting into new projects, whereas Sp Excess folks are more slow and molassesy in their thoughts and actions.
Slender but with oily skin sounds like Stomach Excess/Lung Deficiency, but bloating and irregular appetite could
be due to lots of things including just Qi stagnation (SI deficiency). I suppose the thinking would be that whatever
qualities are the most significant/clear, they get more clinical weight in making your diagnosis…
It does sound like you might be mentally reversing the organ that is Excess and the one that needs to be treated –
slender with oily skin is ST Excess but you would treat Lu; scattered is LI Excess but you would treat Sp.
KristinWisgirda: April 16, 2019, 8:52pm
26/01/2024, 12:32Treating the wrong side? – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/treating-the-wrong-side/86/print3/7
Hi guys,
@dcantor Great clarification for @haunani. I wonder if “scattered” is an appropriate word to describe the LI
constitution. My understanding is that the LI types are interested in lots of things, are creative AND they gets stuff
done. Toby often cites our dynamic friend Michael Max as an LI excess archetype.
dcantor: April 16, 2019, 9:57pm
Per a correspondence with Toby, “LI excess when mild is interested in things, and when major is interested in so
many things it’s overwhelming” – my interpretation of that was tending toward scattered if engaging in too many
things at once, but overwhelm could also be interpreted differently.
KristinWisgirda: April 16, 2019, 10:17pm
I love trying to refine the archetypes here. My read of “scattered” suggested a flightiness that doesn’t seem
consistent with the stubborness and commitment that can be ascribed to LIs. LIs like to tell you all about their new
projects because they are just so interested in what they doing. An expression of the density of metal.
Ask Michael Max how much his commitment to his projects wanes if he gets overwhelmed. Maybe he can set us
straight.
haunani: April 17, 2019, 7:02am
Thank you so much for the clarification. I knew I wanted to go through all the Saam Qiological and qiologician
podcasts again but this cements that decision. Just when I think I feel like I’m starting to understand it…I realize
“whooops” go back again.
As per the discussion with @KristinWisgirda about being “scattered,” I do not consider myself “scattered.”
Overly inspired and interested in a lot of different things, YES. My main obsession is all things qi and prana related
The missing step that I resonated in @michaelmax and @Tobydaly1 ‘s crowdcast on March 13th was the
piece between having a lot of ideas but NOT being able to move forward with them. It’s not a moving forward out
of overwhelm, it’s I’d rather be creating more content rather than pushing it out into the world. i.e. I have enough
ideas for the rest of my life but never move forward in finding a way to get them out beyond my computer or
trusted paper and pen. Thoughts @dcantor???
Both of you have inspired me to take one of the trainings, even if it’s via live streaming. Thank you both for your
contributions and insights. Very helpful.26/01/2024, 12:32Treating the wrong side? – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/treating-the-wrong-side/86/print4/7
KristinWisgirda: April 17, 2019, 1:37pm
@haunani Often our errors are the learning experiences that really stick and help us see the path forward to better
understanding.
The class with Toby in Seattle was really helpful for me. I am hoping to repeat it to really deepen my
understanding of this system.
dcantor: April 17, 2019, 11:07pm
I can see how the term scattered could imply some level of anxiety…I was thinking of it more as describing
someone with their hands in a lot of different pots, which it sounds like you identify with @haunani? I believe
Toby also mentioned that many artists and musicians can fit this picture – slender, Yin Xu creative types. I’ve been
encouraged to not get too wrapped up in determining boredom versus multi-faceted interests tho, as physical
characteristics always take precedence in the Earth and Metal phases. So if someone is definitely slender with oily
skin, I’d be thinking ST excess.
haunani: April 18, 2019, 1:20am
Super helpful! I am inspired by your grasp on this system. THANK YOU!
dcantor: April 18, 2019, 3:37pm
Whatever grasp I have is just the tip of the iceberg I think, but glad to be helpful! Nice to have folks to talk to about
this stuff
KristinWisgirda: April 18, 2019, 4:40pm
I am really enjoying the conversations too!
Toby has repeatedly stated that the physical state is of most importance when evaluating Earth and Metal. There are
lots of nuances to that evaluation. Some skinny, sinewy looking people can still have a good deal of internal damp.
Feeling the qualities of the flesh is particularly helpful.26/01/2024, 12:32Treating the wrong side? – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/treating-the-wrong-side/86/print5/7
michaelmax: April 18, 2019, 10:00pm
Wow, what a great discussion. I’m in between patients, so just a quick note for the moment.
Indeed us LI excess types tend to have lots of ideas and hustle. You know that phrase “if you need something done,
give it to a busy person?” They are talking about LI excess types. ST excess can also be busy, but where LI excess
types get results, ST excess types are often battling some kind headwind. And then there are SP excess types whose
attention drifts from thing to thing but they have trouble mustering the mojo to actually get shit done.
I would not say that LI excess necessarily gets scattered when they have too much. But that being said, we can
have some issues with learning to say “no” so we can focus on the important things that deserve a “yes.”
more later… back to the salt mine
ngmatthews: October 4, 2021, 5:15pm
I think that decisions regarding the Sp/LI, Lu/St patterns are really best based on the physiology of fluids. This
discussion has focused so much on thought and personality aspects. Those personality traits are much more
important in determining the Pc/Lv/Tw/Gb continua. As some have said above, just because a person is skinny it
does not mean that they don’t have damp internal excess. Sometimes in clinic I am not sure about this one, so I just
alternate at different treatments and see what works best. I am also not perfectly sure which pattern fits me.
Sometimes I feel like true Spleen Excess, sometimes Lung Excess. I think it is both, actually in a matter of degree.
Remember Toby said that we should list our first 3-4 ideas for any given patient so if we don’t get it right the first
time, we have a list of other options.
lbdanzig: April 22, 2019, 4:07am
Hi and thank you or all of these comments!
I am wondering about the LI excess, getting stuff done on the double and what does happen to this arch type in an
overwhelmed state? What happens to the commitments?
I am relating to LI excess as described here. I am in a Graduate Mentorship Program, a working mother of two
younglings and planning a Bar Mitzvah which will take place in June. I am a busy gal, getting a lot done but
recently have felt completely overwhelmed, hit the wall and just stopped. I am just observing and allowing my
mojo to kick in again. I really thought I was more of a stomach excess, kind of skinny/fit, oily to moderate skin,
had a bit of acne for the first time in like two years. Is it clinically common to float between LI and St/ Yang Ming?
ngmatthews #18October 4, 2021, 5:15pm26/01/2024, 12:32Treating the wrong side? – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/treating-the-wrong-side/86/print6/7
As I said above, don’t put too much emphasis on mental/emotional things when determining LI/St patterns. Not
knowing much about you based on what you say, you sound more like a SJ excess at the moment.
michaelmax: April 25, 2019, 11:08pm
lbdanzig:
Is it clinically common to float between LI and St/ Yang Ming?
Hi @lbdanzig In terms of personality traits, I don’t think so. ST excess types tend to have lots of bad luck and
things kind of going sideways. LI types hustle and have some achievement, but they tend to constantly work and
not always so good harvesting the efforts of their work.
In terms of fluid/dryness issues, I suspect they could float into each other.
As to overwhelm… we all have a breaking point. And overwhelm might be just what is needed if we have
overextended ourselves, otherwise we would not notice we need some quiet and downtime so as to be able to
sustain a level of high activity.
As a friend of mine likes to say… it’s hard to tell the difference between things falling apart and things falling
together
haunani: April 26, 2019, 12:03am
I’m still VERY curious what a “wrong sided” treatment might look like? @michaelmax…have you done this on
accident or on purpose?
michaelmax: April 26, 2019, 1:11pm
In my experience I’ve not seen a “wrong sided” treatment cause problems, it just doesn’t have the firepower to
solve the problem you’re working on. It’s still hitting the target, albeit at the edge instead of the center.
KristinWisgirda: April 26, 2019, 1:36pm
When Toby talks about sides of treatment, he has mentioned that treating the less optimal side might make
treatment response a little slower but should still have a positive effect if the diagnosis and other aspects of
treatment are correct.26/01/2024, 12:32Treating the wrong side? – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/treating-the-wrong-side/86/print7/7