sweiz: December 5, 2020, 11:34pm
I am wondering if anyone has any experience or thoughts about Bladder + treatment being able to tonify Yin. I
know it is so so good for heat. My experience, which is not enough, is that it will help someone who is hot when
the heat is excess or deficient heat. But I’m not sure…
Anyone?
Daniel: December 6, 2020, 11:11am
Hi Sharon – I’ve certainly had cases in my clinic where they had pronounced dryness and what really moved the
case was identifying the heat as primary in generating the dryness (as distinguished from the SP-LI dynamic for
example) and once I countered the heat with one or two UB+ treatments, moisture appeared – quite remarkable
really . . . . so in those cases while not direct Yin tonification, certainly pivotal in the reestablishment of healthy
yin.
Adina_Kletzel: December 6, 2020, 10:09pm
Hi Sharon,
I can share my observations of Bl+ in the clinic.
I have seen that Bl+ has brought wonderful cool moisture to people who are hot, dry, and crave ice cold water. In
cases where people are dry but are not overly hot and do not crave ice cold water it did not help but rather Sp+ or
LU+ did help.
I recently had a case of a client who was dry on the inside, wet on the outside and who craved ice cold water but
did not feel overly hot. I tonified Bl and it made him tired and did not help the dryness but when I tonified Lu his
dry symptoms (thirst, constipation) decreased and he felt energized.
I had another client who was dry on the inside and outside, and was hot but liked room temp water and Bl+ also
did not help him but Sp+ did.
I found in other cases as well that if Bl+ is not needed it can drain and deplete energy. Its very cold aspect can not
be separated from its water element.
I think in this system it is less about tonifying yin and more about seeing which organ is deficient and tonifying it.
2 Likes10/01/2024, 13:19Tonify Yin with Bladder? – Qiological Community
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sweiz: December 6, 2020, 10:33pm
Thank you both for your experience and insights!
lauramcgraw: December 7, 2020, 12:28am
I also see that Suppl bladder is good for when the heat is excess or deficient. I have been paying attention to
different types of patients where I want to suppl. the bladder and have a few experiences that point to a possiblilty
of tonifying Yin for deficient patients. Would also love to hear your thoughts on this.
First type of patient I think of is the excess hot and dry type which can be from localized stagnation like a hot knee
and is usually more acute. I also have been seeing cases that present with a Shao Yang type pattern with wiry
pulses and when the stagnation and heat are agitating the heart it is really amazing. I have found the pulses in these
cases shift dramatically and the Shao Yang left guan pulse changes in seconds and they feel relaxed and cooler.
Using what I have learned in the GMP I think of these cases as putting cool oil into a dried out hinge to help clear
heat and move the Shao Yang pivot. This is not nourishing yin directly but definitely protecting the fluids.
The other type of patient with more deficiency heat and dryness I feel that it must help tonfiy Yin, maybe in
connection with suppl. Sm. Int or liver or kidney once there is not as much pathological heat. I have found that the
more heat, dryness and heart symptoms in these patients the more profound the outcome. These patients often feel
moisture in their mouth, cooler and the calming effects on the heart immediately. I have also noticed big pulse
changes and tongue cracks softening and after a couple treatments disappearing so it is at least replenishing lost
fluids with the cool water. Anyone else?
George_Mandler: December 7, 2020, 3:16am
sweiz:
Bladder + treatment being able to tonify Yin. I know it is so so good for heat.
Great to have this conversation and hear other’s thoughts…I have not really thought of it as townifying yin, but
more in the language of cold water which can lead to more physiological yin in the person.
For me the big “Yes” for a bladder supplementation is hyper – (i.e. hyper pulse, hyper personality) + dryness OR
heat (i.e. a sensation of ‘burning’, excess or deficient heat).
lauramcgraw:
First type of patient I think of is the excess hot and dry type which can be from localized stagnation like a hot
knee and is usually more acute10/01/2024, 13:19Tonify Yin with Bladder? – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/tonify-yin-with-bladder/1425/print3/6
I have not had good success with acute injuries using Sa’am. I’d love to hear if others have. Have you had injuries
cool down w/BL+ supplementation?
lauramcgraw:
I have found that the more heat, dryness and heart symptoms in these patients the more profound the outcome.
Heart symptoms that are excess? Rapid pulse, amped up personality?
lauramcgraw: December 7, 2020, 5:28pm
Hey George… I have used bladder when there is an acute injury that is hot and inflammed, the patient I treated
recently also had red angiomas on the bladder channel at Bl 2 area and was a fast talker and had a hot inflammed
knee, the knee cooled down in minutes. However, it was heavy leaning on symptoms for Bladder supplementation.
As for heart symptoms that are excess I see this as stagnation affecting the heart with heart palp, heart racing when
the patient is also hot and dry and excess. I had a case of heart disease with arrhythmia that responded really well
with suppl. bladder- he said his heart felt very different as soon as I put the needles in, this patient was also hot and
dry with big rapid wiry pulses, not a lot of deficiency but blood stasis due to liver Qi stag and also was using
XFZYT modified for him.
Have you noticed any tongue changes with suppl bladder?
KristinWisgirda: December 7, 2020, 10:12pm
sweiz:
My experience, which is not enough, is that it will help someone who is hot when the heat is excess or
deficient heat.
Mine too. …,…
George_Mandler: December 8, 2020, 10:48pm
lauramcgraw:
Have you noticed any tongue changes with suppl bladder?
Only over the long term but that could be from herbs or other changes.10/01/2024, 13:19Tonify Yin with Bladder? – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/tonify-yin-with-bladder/1425/print4/6
I do not (yet) have the lens to see changes in face color (and with masks it is difficult). With tongues and seeing a
change in a session seems to require more than I can see. I use physical palpation and the pulse – with BL+
supplementation a key for me is rapid heartbeat and if BL+ is correct the rate usually drops by a good 15% after
needling.
I will mention I had a cool (no pun intended) BL+ supplementation with a freezing cold thin dry woman who came
in complaining about a burning yeast infection that began in July after taking antibiotics for Lyme. (I saw her 5
weeks ago. )She was on western anti-fungals, natural anti-yeast supplements and beyond herself as nothing helped.
There were no damp yeast infection signs and it sounded more dry. For a brief moment I thought she is always
freezing cold I can’t do BL+ but remember Toby saying “any burning feeling you can think BL supplementation”. I
went with BL+ supplementation and immediately her pulse calmed, she calmed and said “it’s gone”. “What’s
gone” I ask. “The burning, I feel no pain”. It was one of those Sa’am treatments one does not forget. …but I didn’t
notice any tongue change.
Adina_Kletzel: December 17, 2020, 5:46am
George_Mandler:
she calmed and said “it’s gone”.
Wow. THat is a great case. Thank-you for sharing.
Two questions – did it stay away?
and did she report feeling colder during the treatment or any complaints of lower energy after the treatment?
I am just wondering if Bl+ can direct the cold to the one place of burning in the body and not adversely affect the
rest of the body which is generally freezing cold.
It in important to understand because I think I would have shied away from Bl+ even for a burning sensation in
someone who is freezing cold.
George_Mandler: December 17, 2020, 2:02pm
Hi @Adina_Kletzel It was a lesson for me as well. The short answer is she did not report feeling colder. The
burning lessened over time and took several further BL+ supplementation treatments for it to seemingly be fully
resolved, but always temporarily resolved as soon as the needles were inserted.
The long answer is here…
She did not report feeling colder and in fact I have supplemented BL+ several times on her. Her skin is ‘always
dry’ and she is borderline underweight. But she reports adequate cervical mucous, no fertility issues, bowels are
softer side. Her tongue has peeled sides, thicker coat in middle and somewhat swollen. Sometimes the tongue coat
is yellow. Her tongue tells a different picture than what is on the surface. Her pulse is very thin and sometimes
rapid. Her abdomen is cold to the touch.10/01/2024, 13:19Tonify Yin with Bladder? – Qiological Community
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On intake when questioned on temperature she stated “I am freezing, even in the summer…all my life”. My use of
the BL+ treatment was she complained of burning and a red rash on lower abdomen after a C-section in 2014
which evolved into dysuria and then what they thought was a yeast infection even thought it was dry and red. She
says the dysuria is a typical UTI but is always negative. Obviously there is heat in there. Believe it or not her main
complaint was severe PMS and dysmenorrhea with digestion issues around her period which started in 2006 after
an appendectomy, the dysuria and burning were secondary.
So for this case clearly she has dryness and heat and that outweighed the ‘freezing cold’. And the rash on the first
BL+ session was over her Bladder so I bet you would have done a BL+ supplementation as well.
I have been treating her about 1x/week since mid-September.
9/24 – Cycle day 9. MC: dryness burning vaginal area, redness over the Bladder, itching
RIGHT BL+ – Burning went away immediately, no itching , reduced her anxiety,
10/1
She reported the burning went away but then came back the next day but overall less than prior week,
LEFT BL+. (Treated left because she said her right LI1 was still sensitive.) Burning gone immediately. Came back
next day, but went away 2 days later and as of 10/9 had not returned.
10/9 Cycle day 23 – Left SI+ (strong right side oketsu) – felt ‘really good’ after this session
10/15 Cycle day 1 – “period is better not as bad” but still cramping and heavy bleeding and ‘feels heat in the
middle” motioning to her lower abdomen… Very dizzy. Pulse is noticeably empty and weak. Right BL+ (yikes I
am hitting on BL+ too much – Maybe could should have added in SI+ here?!?)
Cramping gone, pain gone and felt better. (afterwards I realized that the heat and burning she was feeling was
different than the burning itching)
10/23 – Reported that majority of period symptoms are ‘so much better’. But dysuria was really bad this period.
This is when I realized that the dysuria she described and the itching/burning were two different experiences for
her. I failed to completely understand there was pain on urination that was burning but there was also just a general
itching and burning. The itching/burning was not present, she just had the pain on urination. She also got a flu shot
the day before which caused a host of Taiyang symptoms (eyes, scratchy throat, occipital headache). RIGHT
SI+/LEFT BL+ (I am publishing a cardinal Sa’am sin here doing BL+ so much! But given her symptom
description this is what I was drawn to do)
10/29 – CD15 – Been feeling really good since last treatment. Dysuria doesn’t last as long. In general “I feel the
best I have in a while”.
Also reported that in general feels worse after the treatment and then better the day after. We just had the Advanced
class so I did LV+/HT+ for GYN symptoms.
11/6 – CD23 – ““I feel like it is moving away – it is easy to go about the day and it is easier to forget about it
because it is not irritating me”
LV+/HT+
She said she felt awesome after this treatment.
11/6.
Cycle day 3. “Best period in years”. Not much anxiety before the period, even forgot it was coming which was
amazing. There was no urgency or dysuria this time. No cramps, only a slight headache and fatigue.10/01/2024, 13:19Tonify Yin with Bladder? – Qiological Community
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Since then I have used LR+/HT+/ SP+/ SI+
…
12/10 Cycle day 2 – got period late cycle day 34
Had real bad anxiety and almost a panic attack. But no period pain, no dysuria. “but this is so much better than
before”
Her pulse was 93 beats/minute (oximeter), thin, wiry/tight
I felt she needed to calm down – Right supplement BL+ – her pulse rate immediately went down to a 77bpm
After treatment she said “I feel alive again”. After treatment her pulse felt floating in cun, soft guan and empty in
chi position.
I see her tomorrow we’ll see how she is doing. Now with a big caveat after all that interesting Sa’am info – I did
treat her with herbs. Starting with Wen Jing Tang on 10/9 but seems like a modified Gui Zhi Tang works best for
her. I used a Moxa box on her abdomen 2x and she loved it.
That was a helpful exercise for me to recapitulate her case!
Adina_Kletzel: December 19, 2020, 6:08pm
Wow! Thank-you so much for writing all of that out! This is indeed a great case to learn from!
This case showed that even if someone if freezing cold that Bl+ should definitely be considered if there is burning
pain anywhere.
AND that after the burning pain is gone Ht+ can be used.
THere is just so much contradictory info that would have steered me away from Bl+
the Wen JIng Tang and The GZT and the moxa box…
GOod for you for seeing through all that and using Bl+.
THank-you again for allowing us all to learn from your case.
haunani: December 20, 2020, 7:15pm
Thank you! This is really helpful to see months of treatments with notes. I really appreciate this.