Adina_Kletzel: August 20, 2019, 8:29pm
I am looking to understand why tonify spleen caused unease and unrest in a woman with a dry presentation.
This is a 48 year old woman.
skinny, dry skin, dry throat, dry mouth, very thirsty
extremely organized and pays a lot of attention to detail.
very regimented and productive.
has a high position in a high tech company
bright eyes
diagnosed with breast cancer 9 months ago.
had two surgeries, radiation, and is on hormone treatment to remove estrogen – that put her into menopause.
has to urinate very often. wakes up 2-3 times at night to pee.
has some hot flashes
has a growth on her parathyroid
very polite, pleasant, motherly
pulse is very weak – barely feel it, tongue is pale
I have been tonifying, liv, SI, Kid, and I did BL twice for heat waves
All have brought improvement and good results
this week I put in the needles for tonify Sp to counterbalance the dryness and cuz she is never bored, she is very
regimented, but she did not settle.
I let it be for about 9 minutes but then I asked her if something was bothering her and she said that she felt
unsettled and not at ease, I took the needles out.
#1: why would tonify Sp cause this kind of reaction in someone who is so dry?
#2: I was scared to counterbalance with tonify LI after I took the needles out since she is so dry. I want sure how to
respond. What would have been the correct response?
Thank-you
sweiz: August 20, 2019, 9:08pm
Hi Adina,
It seems to me that the important thing to notice is that the treatment did cause unwanted experience so we have to
trust that. It may be that Sp+ would be fine another session but it just was not primary this time. Reasons could be
that Sp+ is slightly warm and she is slightly warm already but mostly I would think that it is just because it was not
primary. Other channels, like Ki and Liver and Lung can be tonified to bring moisture in. It seems that maybe the
type of moisture she needs is not the Sp moisture, at least not right now. I m interested to see what others with
more experience have to say.
Jeffrey: August 21, 2019, 12:34pm
17/01/2024, 11:58Tonify spleen caused unease in a dry presentation – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/tonify-spleen-caused-unease-in-a-dry-presentation/515/print2/3
Hi Adina,
All these considerations are and can be perplexing ( I am often). I presume, but don t know for sure if she is on
tamoxifen (?).
If so, there is a thread that s already been started about this that may or may not give you some more insight. As
mentioned above,
+SP could be too warm and even though it seems to fit her body type. Because she may be taking medications that
are making her less estrogen dominant, they are really drying her on the inside even though she doesn t have a
clear presentation of it. This of course adds more complication to the picture. But in my very limited experience,
+LV was my first move in a very similar case( of course no two people are the same ). In my case the patient felt
much better but only really helped one of her symptoms. After questioning further, I finally came up with +K The
second tx. That corrected all of her symptoms, but not perfectly yet. Because my patient had a very similar
demeanor as yours, I +LV on the third tx( which was just yesterday).
I am crossing my fingers and hoping that I am seeing it correctly. FYI, this patient had very typical menopausal
symptoms as well; anxiety, insomnia, and anxiety. Looking forward to your decisions in treatment and the results.
Thank you
( still learning how to use this thread. I didn t know how to copy/paste and therefore credit the response before me
by name other than writing it )
Adina_Kletzel: August 21, 2019, 2:55pm
This is exactly the conclusion that I came to and what I explained to her when I took the needles out. For whatever
reason tonifying fluids through spleen is not what her body needed. I need to stick with tonifying liver and kidney
and SI. This brings us to a deeper place in our understanding of the different archetypes. Spleen may be used to
tonify fluids but not always will it be the correct choice The challenge now is to learn to differentiate between the
situations that require tonify spleen to nourish fluids and those that dont.
Is it correct in this system to narrow an archetype down from its general function of nourishing fluids? I did not
hear Toby make this differentiation.
Adina_Kletzel: August 21, 2019, 2:58pm
HI,
I appreciate your response and it is interesting to hear your case, however, I myself am on a similar medication to
tomoxifen and tonify spleen two times in a row took away my intense thirst and replenished the fluids to my skin.
So I dont think a general rule to those on estrogen reducing medication can be applied.
Jeffrey: August 21, 2019, 3:36pm
As I figured, the paradigm widens and becomes more complex/ tricky before a resolution is found. Thanks for your
personal experience and your methodology. I m watching this one. Curious. I am a novice at best looking for clues.17/01/2024, 11:58Tonify spleen caused unease in a dry presentation – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/tonify-spleen-caused-unease-in-a-dry-presentation/515/print3/3
Thanks
George_Mandler: August 21, 2019, 10:11pm
Adina_Kletzel:
I let it be for about 9 minutes but then I asked her if something was bothering her and she said that she felt
unsettled and not at ease, I took the needles out.
You say you treated Liver+, SmallInt_, KD+, BL+2x w/good results. Did those good results increase moisture?
Maybe she no longer needed SP+ as Sharon said.
I sometimes have patients saying they cannot settle so I sink in and let the next channel come to me – maybe even
feel the pulse again to buy some time as we are currently talking about in GMP.
Your patient didn t self combust, was just uneasy so no harm done. She has a growth on her ST channel
(parathyroid) – is it palpable? Also as Sharon said she is warm, so there are perhaps a couple of arguments against
SP+. From what you wrote I d be thinking Liver+ primary which you did.
Remember no problem stays solved in a complex dynamic system. Maybe SP+ may have been favorable on the
2nd treatment but not now after doing BL+ and consolidating with the KD+. Who knows. Clinic is fun.