Adina_Kletzel: May 25, 2020, 12:20pm
HI,
Is it okay to tonify liver on one side and drain GB on the other side?
For a client with blood xu, big eyes, polite, strong attention to outside details – so SJ +
but also has been suffering for migraines on GB meridian for many years, is VERY hot, gets angry so GB+
but is also very tired, thin, and pale
so I am nervous to drain GB on its own.
I was thinking that I could do LIv+ on right and drain half of GB on the left.
Is this done?
BTW – this is after treating her for over a year with JUST tonifications.
I have mainly used, LIv, PC, SI, and occasionally BL and Kid
Below is her Saam excess chart for reference.
Thanks!
SJ bright eyes +7 strong attention to outside details +8 controlling +8
GB gets angry +7 pain on GB meridian +8
Kid fertile +8 symmetry +8 concerned about self +5 Pain+9 varicose veins +8
LI skinny +8, dry skin +9, thirsty +9
Ht hot +10
Bl big fear of getting migraines +8
Lu loose stools and dry skin +8
St very strong appetite +8
SI+ inner medial heel thin skin and full of varicose veins, stools 4-5 times every morning
michaelmax: May 25, 2020, 2:05pm
Hi @Adina_Kletzel
This is an interesting approach you are considering, as it combines Saam with the usual Yin/Yang, interior/exterior
pairings of the Wood phase.
As you ve been using only tonification and need a bit of a boost here, it seems to me that draining a channel would
be the logical next step. And this is how I ve worked as well. I m just not quite getting what I need for the patient
with only supplementing.
I have a few thoughts.
1. This patient sounds high in Shaoyang. Both GB and SJ are excessive. So focusing on the Shaoyang is a good
place to start.
2. If draining, then just drain one channel and see what happens. Don t add +LV if you are going to -GB, that
will confuse things. Just drain the GB and see what happens.15/01/2024, 12:39Tonify on one side and drain on another? – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/tonify-on-one-side-and-drain-on-another/1058/print2/5
3. As with any treatment it is best to stay simple when venturing into new territory.
I m intrigued with your idea of doing some kind of bilateral treatment that addresses both the Saam pairings and
the Yin/Yang within a phase pairing. That s a cool idea, and worth exploring (I m always up for exploring!) But I
would start with first only supplementing. And I would want to first make sure the first 4 needles are doing their
job well, and only then put in the other four. And be sure to see how the patient responses to that. Of course you
already know to always check your work as you go with this system.
Please, keep us posted what you find, and thanks for this idea. I m going to see if it might show up as possibility
for treatment with my patients too.
KristinWisgirda: May 25, 2020, 7:23pm
Thanks for asking before draining. Very few people on this forum have received the full training on how Toby uses
draining and how to drain responsibly. You will have to attend the September class to receive that training. It will
surprise you.
Toby has emphasized again and again that draining is very serious business. In a personal communication, he
stated that no amount of supplementing will reverse the effects of inappropriate draining. Draining is not sedating
or reducing. It is pulling the plug on that particular aspect of the life force. You are Saaming very, very
irresponsibly if you have heard a smattering of information through the grapevine or read the JCM Saam article
and feel ready to start draining. Students who have done so have reported some very bad outcomes.
One spoiler that I can offer is that draining is reserved for extremely robust patients.
Adina_Kletzel:
very tired, thin, and pale
Do you really want to pull the plug on her life force? Very different from a young Mike Tyson when he is just
about ready to bite someone s ear off.
I totally appreciate the impulse to try something new when you have been plugging away for a year and are
wishing better results. Do keep in mind that the patient s constitution is a big factor in treatment outcomes. Some
patients have poor constitutions or big factors in their lives that are already challenging the resources that they
have.
Adina_Kletzel: May 25, 2020, 7:52pm
KristinWisgirda:
One spoiler that I can offer is that draining is reserved for extremely robust patients.15/01/2024, 12:39Tonify on one side and drain on another? – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/tonify-on-one-side-and-drain-on-another/1058/print3/5
Thank-you for your response.
This is why I was wondering about the possibility of tonifying on one side while draining even only half of the GB
on the other side. I did not think she could handle exclusively draining the GB on its own.
I have never drained at all yet in my clinic. I have been fearful of the possibility of detrimental results.
So my question still stands – for someone with this kind of presentation can I tonify on one side and drain (even
half) on the other?
Does that soften the drain enough to benefit from it without weakening her life force?
Adina_Kletzel: May 25, 2020, 7:57pm
Hi Michael,
I like the idea as well. It sounds intriguing. The question is if Toby has even done it? his teacher? Is it okay to
have an idea and try it out ?
Which I guess leads to the underlying question which is how much space do we have to bring our own intuitions
into this system?
It seems that there are quite a few variations of Saam acupuncture.
Do we follow Toby s teachers method to the T? Do we give ourselves space to try some of this and some of that?
I often like to follow what I am taught exactly so but I am seeing that clinic doesnt exactly lend to that
KristinWisgirda: May 25, 2020, 8:25pm
Adina_Kletzel:
I have never drained at all yet in my clinic. I have been fearful of the possibility of detrimental results.
Wise.
Adina_Kletzel:
for someone with this kind of presentation can I tonify on one side and drain (even half) on the other?
Does that soften the drain enough to benefit from it without weakening her life force?
I am not going to answer questions about draining on this forum besides strongly recommending that you don t try
it until you have learned how from Toby. I m almost 100% sure that Toby will be teaching draining in the
September class which is just 4 months away.
BTW: I am surprised you didn t list SP+ as a treatment for your patient. She looks so dry, in and out.
Adina_Kletzel: May 26, 2020, 8:23am
15/01/2024, 12:39Tonify on one side and drain on another? – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/tonify-on-one-side-and-drain-on-another/1058/print4/5
KristinWisgirda:
I am not going to answer questions about draining on this forum besides strongly recommending that you don t
try it until you have learned how from Toby. I m almost 100% sure that Toby will be teaching draining in the
September class which is just 4 months away.
Fair enough
KristinWisgirda:
BTW: I am surprised you didn t list SP+ as a treatment for your patient. She looks so dry, in and out.
I did Sp+ once. It did not bring any dramatic results. It is worth trying again. My hesitation is that she is SO hot so
if I am tonifying water Bl+ would probably be a better choice. I think that fluids are a branch and I have tonified
them every so often but I dont think they are the root of her issues.
Thanks for your help
michaelmax: May 26, 2020, 3:02pm
Adina_Kletzel:
I like the idea as well. It sounds intriguing. The question is if Toby has even done it? his teacher? Is it okay
to have an idea and try it out ?
Hi @Adina_Kletzel,
I think it is natural within the course of practice that we get hints, nudges, and ideas. I think it is our mind
and spirit at work. Taking what we know and pushing us in new directions of exploration.
I don t know if Toby works this way, or if his teacher did. We ll have to ask him.
As to trying it out. I m a fan of innovation and exploration. That said, I think it is important to first have a solid
base in the work we do. Before we start to riff on a tune, we need to know our scales and know the song. We need a
firm baseline. For myself, sticking with the basics of Saam for almost two years now has been very helpful. Toby s
recommendation about no draining in the first year speaks to getting that solid foundation. See what you can
learn within the beneficial constraints of only supplementing.
I ve found the system teaches me when I stick to the basics and keep refining those.
That said, I think all practitioners start to glimpse other possibilities. And that is what moves our understanding
forward.
I found for myself I need to be sure I have both feet firm in the basics, and then I can veer into new territory. For
example, lately I ve been noticing how some clock opposites might be helpful. For example, using UB to treat an
excess LU, but only if that actually makes sense from the Saam perspective.15/01/2024, 12:39Tonify on one side and drain on another? – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/tonify-on-one-side-and-drain-on-another/1058/print5/5
I think our clinical work invites us to open our heart and perspective. And I m all for following those ideas. But
slowly. And again, Only after having a solid foundation in the basics, so we can track and understand how things
are going as we nudge ourselves into new territory.
Again, if you are going to try a new idea, but all means do so. But it slowly. One change at a time. Be observant.
Take careful notes. And let us know what you find out there beyond the edge of map of the world!
Adina_Kletzel: May 26, 2020, 6:38pm
I like your approach. It gives me the freedom and confidence to start to take some ownership of all that we have
been learning. For me that is the difference of a by the books treatment and a treatment that allows my intuition to
flow.
Thank-you.
michaelmax: May 28, 2020, 3:55am
My experience is that as I ve followed the basics with Saam, that in time the system teaches me. As I ve worked
to keep treatments simple and focused, then I m better able to judge the results of the interventions. I feel like I get
glimpses with other ideas, but mostly I stick with the basics.
Still, as I mentioned previously, I sometimes get a glimpse of another idea. Like considering clock opposite
relations. I know this is not part of the foundational work. But there are moments I can see how it might fit from
the Saam perspective and so I will experiment with it.
So for a situation where there needs to be some blood tonification but also some blood movement paring +LV to
build blood with +SI to move blood is a potent combination that both pulls from Saam and considers the zu wu
clock opposite relations.
I m not trying to innovate. I m sticking with the fundamentals and allowing in that nudge of intuition that
@Adina_Kletzel is talking about.
Again, I feel like the system is teaching me.