Jeffrey: August 24, 2019, 1:47pm
often perplexed by this patient. This is a continuation of a case started in “finer points of convexity” here’s
where patient is now;
patient: female, 73
face: somewhat sunken,pale
body: dry inside and out, weak, underweight
cc: dizzy,eye pressure (6), burning at Ren 17(4) better, Haietal hernia R14 area burning (3) better,anxiety up and
down (5), tingling in extremities (3) better.
S&S: v polite, OCD, organized, meticulous,doesnt like xs light, anxious, sleep disorder(medicated ambien 15 years
since cancer), stoic, steadfast,gets things done,diplomatic,mover and shaker (was), still board member of several
humanitarian orgs., do gooder, frequent loose BM, cold inside not to touch, frequent urine, lo appetite,detailed
listener, lots of resources, high society,do gooder, no varicosities or spider veins, well kept, possibly diminished
self love. debilitated from long duration of symptoms.
tx hx: I have treated this patient many times and has “slowly” gotten better over a couple months with some
symptoms getting better bur never holding for sustained periods.Her “normal” is to have varying degrees of he cc.
+LV made her feel badly and dizzy(pehaps sheilded). +SJ brought good results, but far from perfect. As she was
still cold, I +H. This brought mixed results. I next supplemented +ST thinking the downward movement would
help the reflux and benefit the appetite, dry up loose stool, and because of the channel hopefully reduce eye
pressure. Needle retained she looked and felt much better. All her symptoms felt better, not perfect, but much
better. After removing needles she rested in a lazy boy enjoying the relief. After 10 min she felt nausea and felt like
possible dry heaves! I did a strong P6 after she calmed down. This helped and nausea reduced like magic. she
complained of some stomach pain (and had some intermittent leg shaking during the nausea event). I did ST36 bi
lat deep and strong. she calmed and felt much better. she felt so off that day she was driven to apt., much better
after treatment but it was an event. Because R17 and R14 area was at the forefront next visit, I dare to +UB. After 5
min check, face looked good, she gave me a thumbs up. She rested calmly for 15 mi more and then asked her how
she was. She said its a miracle; eye pressure, dizzyness, both chest areas burning, st pain, nausea all better. She
looked and acted like a woman I had not yet met. She texted me a couple times that night reporting that she has not
felt this normal/well since she could remember! The next morning it all fell apart, some momentary chills,increased
burning and anxiety. Against my mixed judgement for obvious reasons, 1) great results 2) fallout next am,
debilitated weak patient…I +UB the next day. I din’t bind the needles nearly as much, and only did 15 min tx.
Similar wonderful results. This time it only lasted for about 5 hours till symptoms flared again. 4 days later her
symptoms are cc: above.
for someone who felt 95% better but could not hold the treatment I come to tw basic working theories 1) weak
constitution, not enough Qi to maintain tx, like pouring water into a bucket that has holes in it 2)I’ve got it all
wrong.
note: 2 admissions; 1) because she was so weak and symptomatic and could bare keep food, herbal medicine down,
Ive been less aggressive with herbal medicine which is my mainstay.
2) I really wanted to see, and not confuse, strong Sa’am with medicine.26/01/2024, 11:27Symptom Relief, wont hold , so many roads – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/symptom-relief-wont-hold-so-many-roads/537/print2/5
other insights/strategies: Im considering building her up with herbal medicine for a couple weeks to get her
stronger, retain Qi by firming up stool and regulating appetite and stool.
Also consider +SJ or possibly+K, and back to +UB
my office mate suggested I continue on with +SJ wen i went to +H. She saw her sparkle and said that was the way
to go(she is more adept than me in this area)
amyjenner #2August 26, 2019, 12:03am
somewhere in my notes I have that SI+ for skinny deficient, dizzy women is a gem
Joanne_Tait #3August 26, 2019, 3:08am
Just read this post after the initial post. Curious why you chose +UB?
I’m still rooting for Kidney, especially if she’s weak and debilitated.26/01/2024, 11:27Symptom Relief, wont hold , so many roads – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/symptom-relief-wont-hold-so-many-roads/537/print3/5
Jeffrey: August 26, 2019, 3:15pm
@amyjenner [quote=“amyjenner, post:2, topic:537”]
inny deficient, dizzy women is a gem
[/quote] THanks for that Amy. I remember that too and at this stage it is a good reminder for me. It makes perfect
sense right?!?I have +SI a couple times with varied mediocre results, go figure. Not to say that it may become
appropriate again.
As a clinical update, four days after her last +UB, I spent a lot of time questioning and strategizing.
1 shallow breathing due to anxiety
2 more frustrated/irritated during meetings, less of her librarian self (methodically explain/repeat info), more “lets
get to the point. She has such a poker face this is easily hidden
3 insomnia treated with Ambien for 15 years
4 ive been largely abandoning my other skill sets of dx in order to lean on Sa’am paradigm for the most part. but in
checking pulse LV FIRE! fire in the middle and upper jiaos! tlak about confused S&S.
5 relevant or not, she mentioned “anger doesnt feel like a useful emotion anymore” curious statement.
all of her burning symptoms were increased esp R17(mu pt of P,sea of Qi), eye pressure and dizzyness up a bit,
anxiety full tilt. cold inside
I was apprehensive about dumping morre cold water on her as I had just done that 2x in a row.
so I +P re; questioning. I peeked in the room at 5 min eyes closed, sl color coming to face. A few min later ,asleep.
first time! after about 15 min I noticed sher eyes calmly opening. She asked for he water, took a sip, back to sleep
even deeper, OUT. I took the needles out after 30 min. Everything was 80+% better except the R!& burning, it was
about 50+% better.
Jeffrey: August 26, 2019, 3:34pm
@Joanne_Tait [quote=“Joanne_Tait, post:3, topic:537, full:true”]
Just read this post after the initial post. Curious why you chose +UB?
I’m still rooting for Kidney, especially if she’s weak and debilitated.
[/quote] didnt seem like the loudest for quite a while, and then still i was deliberating over it.
But to answer; hot chest, hot reflux, electrical feelings down her limbs (no neuropathy) anxiety increased with
other heat S&S, as did eye pressure, dizzy, heat and pain in gut. Cold inside so not perfect, but no shortage of
“chanel and quality” presentation. Anyway 85+% decrease in all symptoms, Who am I to argue with results(i do
however question them and try to analyze ). As to your thoughts on +K, i was going there for the same reasons
before questioning. She certainly has enough balls in that continuum. Not that a fleshy heel is antithetical to +K (i
dont think?) but she has them. The other issues were at least louder to me at the time. I still think of +K for
consolidation. Thanks for the reinforcement.
Jeffrey: August 28, 2019, 4:57pm
26/01/2024, 11:27Symptom Relief, wont hold , so many roads – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/symptom-relief-wont-hold-so-many-roads/537/print4/5
MMax has been tossing this hot/cold potato around with me to a large degree. He even suggested +SP, makes sense
for body type , moisten up a dry situation and benefit bowel to hopefully plug up “holes in her bucket” so she can
hold her tx, solidify central qi… I couldnt disagree, it was in the top three with +K and +P. (my office mate said
+SP too warm for her)
So a wonderful result and it got better through the eve. Again, symptoms back in am. I have a new working
hypothesis; 15 years of Ambien and a regular, light but regular bourbon drinker. This is a very tricky med to begin
with, long time use, ETOH contraindicated. Late onset of side effects can happen at any time, confirmed by a
medical researcher colleague(he gave me a long list of physiological changes that could lead to this issue) so LV
fire >anxiety,agitation, LV sludge(deep and damp congestion)> fatigue,dizzy etc. This is of course a functional
issue. I think this could be a rock in the road that needs consideration and amending. Thanks yall. all is welcome
and appreciated
amyjenner: August 28, 2019, 10:01am
What’s ETOH?
…mmmm…mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jeffrey #8August 28, 2019, 11:54am
@amyjenner
What’s ETOH?
…mmmm…mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Alcohol
KristinWisgirda #9August 28, 2019, 11:31pm
My notes have small-boned, thin and dizzy as a special presentation for SI+.
This was Toby’s teachers directive in my understanding. Sometimes pretty, but doesn’t have to be.
I question the “deficient” as it might be misleading.
I wasn’t present in NY- if Toby included deficient as part of this presentation, please let me know and we can
double check. Thanks.
Jeffrey: August 29, 2019, 1:46pm
Hi Kristen,26/01/2024, 11:27Symptom Relief, wont hold , so many roads – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/symptom-relief-wont-hold-so-many-roads/537/print5/5
I really don’t know if he mentioned either in that class. Though I have been informed of the +SI for skinny, small
boned individuals suffering from windy symptoms such as dizziness. In fact I’ve done it 2x w her w mediocre
results, first two treatments. Nonetheless it hast been taken off the table. That said, my latest working hypothesis is
dependency, addiction to a v tricky med that has been over prescribed( essentially nobody monitoring properly).
Ambien is to be used not on a regular basis and not continually for a long( even shorter than I realized after further
investigation). 15 years of daily use potentially has rendered in a tough place. All, some and perhaps none of her
symptoms could be the out come. All her symptoms are common side effects. But with abuse and addiction things
often go sideways. Ie: a few tx have made her “ normal “” haven’t felt like this in years”
Then it goes kaput in am. After seeing this a few times I had to reconsider the med and the fact that she takes it to
sleep at night, same w contraindicated to RX bourbon. Chemicals are potent!
I have seen and heard of the power of Sa’am. misused chemicals are difficult to overcome without removing them.
A work in progress.
Thanks