Adina_Kletzel: May 12, 2019, 11:04pm
HI,
I am struggling with the Liver archetype. Tonifying liver is so important for clients who have blood or yin
deficiency but I am so hesitant to use it because of the ‘dark side’ of the liver. When I think of the image of the
dark redwood forest in which no sunlight can shine through and for which there is less connection to spiritual
energy I wonder to myself what good I would be doing by tonifying this kind of energy in a person. So many
struggle to have enough light in their spirit and sunshine in their lives, why would I diminish this energy in their
system? And why would I want to increase a tendency to be less aware of others? Can you please help me work
through this struggle and help me understand tonifying liver in a different way (if there is one)?
sweiz: May 11, 2019, 7:59pm
Hi Adina,
I think the misty coolness of the forest is equally as spiritual as the light of the San Jiao so I would suggest that this
split between light/spiritual and dark/lack of spirituality is false. Maybe one way to think of it is to think of our
idea of right relationship. A San Jiao excess is Yang out of right relationship and it needs the Yin of the Liver to
hold it. It actually can’t really be spiritual unless it is in right relationship with the Liver. It’s just being too exposed
and firey.
Does that help.
Ryan_Gallagher: May 11, 2019, 8:04pm
To follow up on @sweiz:
As I understand it, the Sa’am LR archetype is prototypical Yin: dark, moist, and cool. Since we live in such a yang-
centric society (and even the environment around us is warming and drying), supplementing the LR is essential for
balance. Many people feel overly stimulated by a relentlessly busy world; the LR provides a welcome shield so
that they can rest and rejuvenate. Now, you wouldn’t give it to someone who’s already aloof/withdrawn/cold/dense;
but for the right person, supplementing LR can help provide the Yin substrate, so that Yang can thrive instead of
desiccating the person.
Adina_Kletzel: May 11, 2019, 9:30pm
26/01/2024, 11:58Struggle with the Liver energy – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/struggle-with-the-liver-energy/212/print2/4
That actually makes a lot more sense than the picture that I had in my head. I like thinking of it as yin and yang
being out of right relationship. THat takes away the box of total dark and total light that I had put the liver/san jiao
in. It is more of a balance that must be achieved with one affecting the other.
Thank-you so much!
Adina_Kletzel: May 11, 2019, 9:32pm
That is very helpful! It makes more sense to think of the LR and SJ energies as yin and yang rather than dark and
light. Thank-you!
KristinWisgirda: May 13, 2019, 5:46pm
Adina_Kletzel:
So many struggle to have enough light in their spirit and sunshine in their lives, why would I diminish this
energy in their system?
Supplementing one system doesn’t diminish its counterbalancer. We aren’t diminishing our patient’s superpowers
when we supplement. Instead we help them access the elements that will allow them to express their special gifts in
a more sustainable way.
michaelmax: May 13, 2019, 7:21pm
KristinWisgirda:
Supplementing one system doesn’t diminish its counterbalancer. We aren’t diminishing our patient’s
superpowers when we supplement. Instead we help them access the elements that will allow them to express
their special gifts in a more sustainable way.
That is if we are townifying. Draining is another matter. Which is why it’s best to leave that alone until we have a
good sense of how these changes can ripple around the circle of channels/organs.
Draining does indeed take something away. Tonifying will boost a channel/organ, but not take anything away from
the patient in terms of resources or qi
1 Like26/01/2024, 11:58Struggle with the Liver energy – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/struggle-with-the-liver-energy/212/print3/4
mtewksbury: May 14, 2019, 4:57am
Adina
It is so funny, I have found myself always wanting to supplement Liver. I seem to want to bring in cool, moist,
forest energy into everyone. This is obviously not a good habit to get in to. Sa’am throws my diagnostic skills into
clear relief and what I see is not always favoable. I find that I have many unconscious biases, like the Live energy. I
clearly favor certain archetypes and assign “good” or “bad” to one or the other. I am at my most successful when I
am able to stand back and see clearly what is happening with a patient regardless of what I think should be
happening or what happened before or what type of energy I have decided is good or bad. It is truly difficult to be
an unbiased observer of what just is, but I feel like it is a crucial aspect of what we are doing and the key to our
success as clinicians.
This work, like the work with Sharon, is such a clear reflection of the conclusions that I tend to jump to in
diagnosis and the reflexive habits that I have in treating. It is a good and very humbling process.
KristinWisgirda: May 14, 2019, 1:37pm
@mtewksbury Thank for bringing up this important subject. My biases have included an aversion to tonifying the
UB. Having a little UB excess myself, it was hard to imagine anyone benefiting from ice cold water. Having some
personal GB excess, there have been times I’ve wanted to tonify everyone’s Pericardium. Tonifying my Lung
changed my life, so of course I brought that curiosity into the treatment room too.
Bias of some sort will likely always be there. The more skilled clinician will have enough self cultivation to see it
trying to run the show.
Just one more reason to have a meditation/personal inquiry practice.
Raui: May 14, 2019, 2:56pm
Really cool discussion here, I just wanted to add on the back of sweiz’s comment re spirituality and the darkness
that actually for anyone in a role of healing I think that the SJ and Lv axis both need to be strong. SJ because it
allows us to be really dialed into a patients presentation and all the unconscious things they are telling us every
moment if we have senses to perceive.
As I have learned from my qigong teacher cultivating what would be seen as Lv energy in this system is also super
important for healers because it allows for shielding from a patients energy. I have two people I studied with in
mind when I think of too much of either of these dynamics in a healer.
A friend I studied with stopped studying tcm because almost everytime she would treat a patient she would end up
with what the patient was presenting with. She was super open, very highly attuned to detail, the tea ceremony type
for sure.
Another who continued on he is an archetypal Lv excess. Dragging his feet as he walks, doesn’t say much, dull
eyes, when he does talk he’s very guarded and generally seems unaware of his surroundings and would26/01/2024, 11:58Struggle with the Liver energy – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/struggle-with-the-liver-energy/212/print4/4
occasionally say something very insensitive to his patients but not out of disrespect but out of unawareness.
Despite being very good academically his treatments were always a bit off and sometimes there would be glaringly
obvious things that he would look over, I do feel that if it was a case study written on paper then he’d have a great
treatment protocol.
Also I am an avid gardener and can say most living things require the dark to grow. Darkness is critical. From a
spiritual perspective my most rewarding experiences are also the most challenging experiences and they boil down
to to facing my own darkness. Darkness has been my deeply loving but stern grandfather, showing me how I can
be a better more alive human. Without it there would be no growth, at least in my experience.
Tobydaly1: May 14, 2019, 6:12pm
“How we practice medicine says almost everything about who we are.” – Jeffery Yuen
Adina_Kletzel: May 14, 2019, 9:19pm
Thank-you, that has certainly given me a new way to look at the Liver archetype. I think you are absolutely right.
Our own biases get in the way. I grew up with an excess liver, depressive family member and that created an
aversion of anything too dark and dreary for me and so I stay away from Liver. I am so grateful for this discussion
because it has unveiled my own personal biases and now I will need to face them and learn to step away from them
and see the patient from a clean eye. That will be a difficult but welcome challenge.
Taran: July 12, 2019, 12:52pm
Here is a naive question (and to be clear it is theoretical, I am not draining in clinic) – where does the something
that we drain go when we take it away?