philipsuger: August 11, 2020, 1:01am
Toby talked about the dynamic between SJ and LR being one of internal and external awareness. SJ excess is hyper
aware of their external environment and social interactions, while LR excess is oblivious in that regard. Yet, does
that mean that LR excess people are very aware of the happenings in their own body, internally?
Daniel #2August 11, 2020, 4:43am
my understanding is not necessarily their body but their own inner world – just very inner focussed – self absorbed.
KristinWisgirda: August 11, 2020, 7:08pm
Hi Phil,
Warning: this is not going to be a clear answer but maybe will provide some food for thought.
I asked Toby about hyperawareness of the body relating to SJ excess because there seemed to be a correlation in
my experience. He said that No-the outward focus of SJ excess does not include the body and that focus on the
body is more inward.
But then he talks about archtypally SJ excess monks giving highly detailed information about their experiences of
their body. This was in context of talking about SJ excess folks being great reporters giving highly reliable
information. Yes, the job of a monk is turning the outward SJ focus and turning it inward, but still this matched my
experience of SJ excess and body awareness correlating.
Going back to the basics of Liver excess from the intro course: mental focus is dull and inward. In my experience
of Liver excess patients, information about their body experiences is hard to extract. They are not interested in
sharing so it is hard to know what is going on in their internal world, unlike SJ excess folks who are open books.
My experience is that the information a liver excess shares is dull, not detailed and sounds disconnected to my SJ
excess body nerd ears.
Dull/bright, open/closed, inner/outer. These are all factors to consider in where any given aspect of the presentation
is on the SJ/Liver spectrum. Often the way a patient shares information is as important as what they are sharing.
michaelmax: August 12, 2020, 3:54pm
23/01/2024, 11:44SJ vs LR excess in regards of internal/external awareness – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/sj-vs-lr-excess-in-regards-of-internal-external-awareness/1214/print2/5
philipsuger:
Yet, does that mean that LR excess people are very aware of the happenings in their own body, internally?
Hi @philipsuger, welcome to the Saam forum!
I ve found the Liver Excess people are a bit dull. That said, I ve some who are also quite intelligent, but they
have this way of communicating that makes it a bit hard to get a sense of what is really going on for them.
Sometimes people who are socially awkward can fall into this, it s not that they don t mean well, but they are a
little clumsy in their interactions.
They also tend to have dense bodies.
Watch for this with your palpation.
If someone comes with a nicely pressed shirt and creased pants and has polished shoes. They probably are NOT a
Liver excess type!
cassiopeia: August 16, 2020, 1:34am
I am learning to discern this too, but think I have an example from a patient:
he is prone to headaches. when I tried to get details about onset, characteristics etc, he said I think I probably wake
up with it, but I just feel tired, and really don t realize it s a headache until later in the day.
He is a very lean but not skinny man, and the tissues are dense, it s actually hard to get a needle into muscular
places.
michaelmax: August 18, 2020, 8:02pm
Could be a bit LV excess. But I ve also have patients who are more the SP worry types and sometimes they too
have trouble going into detail on what s going on for them in terms of how it feels to them
Now that I think about it. I think there are some people who are so focus on how they should be, so dependent on
the input from others for their self image they can t really connect with who they actually are and how they really
feel.23/01/2024, 11:44SJ vs LR excess in regards of internal/external awareness – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/sj-vs-lr-excess-in-regards-of-internal-external-awareness/1214/print3/5
Adina_Kletzel #7August 19, 2020, 9:05pm
And would you say those people lean more toward SI excess?
michaelmax: August 22, 2020, 4:05am
Hi @Adina_Kletzel
What makes you lean toward SI here? I m curious to know what you re seeing.
KristinWisgirda: August 22, 2020, 1:12pm
michaelmax:
there are some people who are so focus on how they should be, so dependent on the input from others for
their self image they can t really connect with who they actually are and how they really feel.
This speaks to rule following P excess. A case also could be made for SJ excess focus on the outer world.
Daniel: August 22, 2020, 2:12pm
Kristin – help me out here – how does dependancy on others for self – image speaks to rule following P Excess ?
I m not clear on that
what about Kidney Deficiency – lack of self-love
KristinWisgirda: August 22, 2020, 3:48pm
I see SI excess as the self falling apart. The person has a hard time being any particular way. Even if the person
thinks they should be a particular way, they would have a hard time putting that together. What they do is not
oriented to benefiting or formulating a self.
P and SJ excesses, to my mind, are much more concerned with social norms. The P excess school teacher is going
to dress in a modest professional school teacherly way because that is following the rules compared to the GB
excess rebel who might wear clothes that show off his tattoos and rev his motorcycle noisily when he drives into
the school parking lot. Wish I could think of a more nuanced example.23/01/2024, 11:44SJ vs LR excess in regards of internal/external awareness – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/sj-vs-lr-excess-in-regards-of-internal-external-awareness/1214/print4/5
The SJ excess will also be more likely to follow the rules and social norms because of their care about others and
desire for outward harmony. The liver excess doesn t care about social norms because he/she doesn t even notice.
The Liver excess school teacher might not notice he is wearing an unironed shirt or notice that she has a stain on
her skirt.
I am open to other imaginings of the archetypes but this is what makes sense to me.
Daniel: August 22, 2020, 4:08pm
wow – that s some deep thinking Kristin! You re awesome. I m gonna chew on all that for a while . . . .
michaelmax: August 22, 2020, 8:59pm
KristinWisgirda:
The liver excess doesn t care about social norms because he/she doesn t even notice. The Liver excess school
teacher might not notice he is wearing an unironed shirt
Hey you taukin about me?
Adina_Kletzel: August 22, 2020, 9:33pm
If someone is so concerned with how they should be and so dependent on the input from others for their self
image then they may need some Kid + to help them love themselves and connect with how they actually feel
inside.
KristinWisgirda: August 23, 2020, 8:38pm
While it is fun to muse on such subjects, my feeling is that applying our preferred and biased conclusions to these
hypothetical musings to actual patients might not be in anyone s best interest.
We have established that letting outside input guide one s behavior could be rooted in a variety of channel
excesses. Given that, it shouldn t be given much clinical weight.
Sharon W s has her students take symptoms that can have multiple explanations and explain them through a
diagnosis that is based on *for sure *signs and symptoms that have clear clinical weight. This makes so much more
sense to me than diagnosing based on such blurry symptoms. From experience, I know that practitioners can have23/01/2024, 11:44SJ vs LR excess in regards of internal/external awareness – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/sj-vs-lr-excess-in-regards-of-internal-external-awareness/1214/print5/5
pet diagnoses and approaches that only get in the way of us really seeing our patients clearly. In the practice of
Saam, our for sure signs and symptoms can be found in the intro powerpoint.
michaelmax: August 24, 2020, 6:37pm
KristinWisgirda:
While it is fun to muse on such subjects, my feeling is that applying our preferred and biased conclusions to
these hypothetical musings to actual patients might not be in anyone s best interest.
And at the same time, pushing the edges of our understanding and testing to see how that goes (thus one channel in
these situations) is one way to move forward and see if our good idea has any basis in reality.
Sometimes we don t know for sure. And we need ways to navigate that territory for which we don t have a map.
Another way that I use to check myself when navigating off the map is to see if there is another explanation for
what I m seeing with a patient. That helps to reduce the confirmation bias.
Additionally, I like to take my new favorite idea about a patient and see if I can in my mind prove it wrong. What
other signs are showing up that could disprove the hypothesis?
Indeed, if we are working in known territory, then it s best to go with the usual things that work and not try to get
all fancy. But when we are in new territory, we need ways to check ourself as we move forward. And again for
me in these situations I will only use one channel because what I m doing is part treatment and part test and I want
as clear results as I can possibility get.