sfink: December 9, 2020, 5:14pm
A bit confused on a patient who seems so sj excess but doesn’t respond at all to Liv+. He is very sensitive to light,
meticulous, prefers a darker room, can’t sleep when the moon is full, the first thing he does at the beach is find the
shade, he has a fairly light body density (though maybe slight denseness in his calves), his eyes aren’t super
sparkly but are also not dull. He is extremely sensitive to all sensations with acupuncture treatments, and can tell
me exactly what is happening in his body and where, BUT He feels very shielded – he even used those words
today. I get the feeling when I’m with him, that I am being keenly observed, but that he is behind a cloud. I can
usually read people with more ease, and even after many treatments, I’m still not quite sure what makes him tick.
His chief complaint is pain along the sj channel of his forearm. The first time I tonified liver he seemed to have a
flare up in his arm (although could also have been flared up by activity). The arm is slowly improving with sp+
(he’s very industrious and mostly frustrated that the arm keeps him from household projects) but today I tried to
tonify liver again – but no response. I’m wondering if the shielding in this case is actually trumping all the other
apparent sj excess. As an aside (although nothing feels an aside in sa’am) his head is always tilted to the side I
believe from a tight left trapezius – not sure if this goes under assymmetry or gb/pc/si/ki but it is very noticeable.
Apart from +Lv, +Sp, I’ve also tonified SI due to the nature of his arm injury and the ropey sensations at the
injured area – and his arm did improve – though he is still frustrated with the rate of improvement.
Here are some other characteristics
Pc: seems studious. Calm. Centered +8
Liv: feels shielded +7, sj channel pain, dull complexion +7
Sj: meticulous +8 light sensitive +8, sj channel pain
Li: industrious +8
Lu: driesh skin, soft belly +3
Ki: pain, injury, ropey sensation +8
SI: Assymetry + 7
There’s part of me itching to +sj – even though on paper it seems like that would be a crazy idea. Maybe this is a liv
– sj toggle? Have you all seen that?
George_Mandler: December 9, 2020, 5:51pm
Oh these are the tricky cases we can so learn from if we can crack them.
sfink:
His chief complaint is pain along the sj channel of his forearm.
Bilateral? Or is it the left side where the trapezius is tight?18/01/2024, 11:09Shielding vs light sensitivity – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/shielding-vs-light-sensitivity/1432/print2/10
sfink:
tight left trapezius – not sure if this goes under assymmetry or gb/pc/si/ki but it is very noticeable
I have only heard it described in terms of bone structure/facial structure.
sfink:
SI due to the nature of his arm injury and the ropey sensations at the injured area – and his arm did improve
Did his trapezius release from the SI+ supplementation?
sfink:
nature of his arm injury
what was the injury and how long? Did it pre-date or come after the tight trapezius?
sfink:
still frustrated with the rate of improvement.
How does he express his frustration?
Does he feel more “concave” to you?
Where does he lie in terms of temperature? Does he get cold easily – or hot all the time?
sfink:
Maybe this is a liv – sj toggle? Have you all seen that?
From what you say he sounds so much more SJ excess. Does he make eye contact and see present and aware of
surroundings? – if so then don’t get confused by that shielded word and I’d say he is SJ excess. If he looks away
and more withdrawn then maybe then that is what I think of shielded. As to why Liver supplementation didn’t
work – hmm. I will say I have found location, location, location, make sure you feel and hit the correct points.
sfink: December 9, 2020, 6:11pm
Thanks so much George!
[quote=“George_Mandler, post:2, topic:1432”]
Bilateral? Or is it the left side where the trapezius is tight?
[/
Both trapezius and arm pain on the left side.18/01/2024, 11:09Shielding vs light sensitivity – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/shielding-vs-light-sensitivity/1432/print3/10
George_Mandler:
Did his trapezius release from the SI+ supplementation?
Yes, Si+ temporarily released it a bit.
George_Mandler:
what was the injury and how long? Did it pre-date or come after the tight trapezius?
He was walking his dog and the dog raced after something and the leash pulled his fingers (I believe 2-4). His tight
traps predated this.
George_Mandler:
How does he express his frustration?
Does he feel more “concave” to you?
His frustrations expression is subtle. More in terms of “well, it’s not gone yet”
He maybe does feel a little concave.
George_Mandler:
Where does he lie in terms of temperature? Does he get cold easily – or hot all the time?
No hot or cold sensitivities or subjective sensations, though his feet are cold to the touch.
George_Mandler:
Does he make eye contact and see present and aware of surroundings?
Yes, lots of eye contact and awareness.
I needle Liv+ all the time – and have been using the method for about 1.5 years now. I’m open to it being user error,
but I did recheck the points many times, used thick needles, and twirled.
Thanks so much for your response.
KristinWisgirda: December 9, 2020, 6:13pm
sfink:
There’s part of me itching to +sj – even though on paper it seems like that would be a crazy idea. Maybe this is
a liv – sj toggle? Have you all seen that?18/01/2024, 11:09Shielding vs light sensitivity – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/shielding-vs-light-sensitivity/1432/print4/10
Toggling SJ/Liver is a thing but not for this patient. You only toggle treatments that help. Liver+ didn’t help him
and might have flared him up on the first visit. 2 failed Liv+ means that draining SJ would be a huge mistake! You
have 0 indications for draining right now so don’t go there.
I don’t know what he means when he says he feels shielded.
We really need more information about this patient. You haven’t included what he does for a living, grooming, the
side of his arm pain, or many of the Saam physical findings such as medial heel, thenars, varicosities, and
everything George mentioned. Where is the ropey sensation? BTW, unless the ropey sensation is on the K or SI
channels or is a varicosity it shouldn’t be listed as a K excess sign.
Take a fresh look and send along more info.
I
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George_Mandler: December 9, 2020, 6:38pm
sfink:
His tight traps predated this.
I wonder if you open up the traps if that may help the forearm?
sfink:
I’m open to it being user error, but I did recheck the points many times, used thick needles, and twirled.
Sounds like you are on point. I only mention the location from my wrong location experience and wonder how
many times I’ve thought a treatment didn’t work was only because of wrong location.
sfink:
Yes, lots of eye contact and awareness.
So taken other characteristics you’ve shared this is not the shielded we talk about when we say Liver excess. That
shielded is more dull and lack of awareness – the shield of a SJ excess is sort of not like being in the limelight. That
is how I view it.
Sometimes channel and maybe you can do SJ supplementation, but he sounds so SJ excess to me.
If it were me based on what you said I’d consider seeing if GB supplementation melts the trapezius. How does that
feel to you? You can sit with him and you’ll know quickly whether it will go sideways, but he sounds to have PC
excess qualities and given the trapezius predated the dog leash incident I’d give that a try.
I am of course so curious as to what others think.
George_Mandler #6December 9, 2020, 6:43pm
KristinWisgirda:
draining SJ would be a huge mistake!
I didn’t think a SJ drain was presented, but more a question of supplementing both Liver+ and SJ+. If I read that
wrong then I agree definitely no SJ drain.
sfink: December 9, 2020, 8:06pm
18/01/2024, 11:09Shielding vs light sensitivity – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/shielding-vs-light-sensitivity/1432/print6/10
KristinWisgirda:
Toggling SJ/Liver is a thing but not for this patient. You only toggle treatments that help. Liver+ didn’t help
him and might have flared him up on the first visit. 2 failed Liv+ means that draining SJ would be a huge
mistake! You have 0 indications for draining right now so don’t go there
I have zero intention of draining him. Or anyone for that matter at this point.
KristinWisgirda:
You haven’t included what he does for a living, grooming, the side of his arm pain, or many of the Saam
physical findings such as medial heel, thenars, varicosities, and everything George mentioned. Where is the
ropey sensation? BTW, unless the ropey sensation is on the K or SI channels or is a varicosity it shouldn’t be
listed as a K excess sign.
He is a graphic designer for a local company. He is well groomed. Pain is on the left arm. Some varicosities on his
feet but very mild. Medial heel is not dry or cracked or puffy – just normal. The ropey sensation is where the injury
was – on the sj channel.
George_Mandler:
If it were me based on what you said I’d consider seeing if GB supplementation melts the trapezius. How does
that feel to you? You can sit with him and you’ll know quickly whether it will go sideways, but he sounds to
have PC excess qualities and given the trapezius predated the dog leash incident I’d give that a try.
Sounds like a great idea George. To be honest, I have an aversion to needling that channel because of that poor
little pinkie toe, but he definitely exhibits some PC excess symptoms – and perhaps his calm centered
characteristics are what I’m perceiving has being shielded.
Thanks for your consideration!
KristinWisgirda: December 9, 2020, 8:15pm
Talk about getting fixated on ideas! Sorry, I didn’t see the + and instead saw the – as an indication for draining.
sfink:
+sj –
The potentially adverse reaction to Liv+ would be an indication for SJ+. But it is interesting that he didn’t have
another adverse event after the second Liv+. That takes the steam out of SJ+.
sfink:18/01/2024, 11:09Shielding vs light sensitivity – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/shielding-vs-light-sensitivity/1432/print7/10
I can usually read people with more ease, and even after many treatments, I’m still not quite sure what makes
him tick.
Tread carefully then and ask yourself how believable a P excess he is. I know many, many people with
convincingly calm exteriors who have a good amount of GB excess inside.
sfink: December 9, 2020, 8:17pm
KristinWisgirda:
The potentially adverse reaction to Liv+ would be an indication for SJ+. But it is interesting that he didn’t have
another adverse event after the second Liv+. That takes the steam out of SJ+
Well, I didn’t leave it in long. Only 5-10 minutes – but it just felt flat – nothing was happening and he is normally so
very sensitive.
sfink: December 9, 2020, 8:18pm
KristinWisgirda:
Tread carefully then and ask yourself how believable a P excess he is. I know many, many people with
convincingly calm exteriors who have a good amount of GB excess inside.
Gonna have to think about this one. And maybe ask his wife (:
sfink: December 10, 2020, 2:34am
I’m curious though…have any of you have seen a patient that is just so obvious one confirmation, but didn’t
respond at all, or responded negatively, to the corresponding tonifying treatment? Would love to hear your
experiences.
KristinWisgirda: December 10, 2020, 2:31pm
sfink:18/01/2024, 11:09Shielding vs light sensitivity – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/shielding-vs-light-sensitivity/1432/print8/10
I’m curious though…have any of you have seen a patient that is just so obvious one confirmation, but didn’t
respond at all, or responded negatively, to the corresponding tonifying treatment? Would love to hear your
experiences.
Yes. Your case reminds me of a patient with extreme light sensitivity (sunglasses indoors, felt attacked by light),
who superficially presented as a poster woman for P excess. Ends up she needed her Gb drained to treat her light
sensitivity. The attacked by light aspect proved to be very telling. Liver+ didn’t do a thing for her. This took over a
year of Saam treatment to figure out.
We think of light sensitivity as a for sure sign for SJ excess but my case proves it isn’t. This particular patient was
very polite and outwardly detail oriented in many ways but in other ways also quite oblivious to the outer and
actually quite caught up with her inner story. Her eyes are somewhat dull too. She is not too open like a SJ excess
would be. Her case is a good reminder to go back to the fundamental dynamics of the channel excesses. Really
learning to recognize them will help us understand our patients so much better than light sensitivity=SJ excess.
sfink:
I get the feeling when I’m with him, that I am being keenly observed, but that he is behind a cloud. I
Liver excess patients can’t be reached, won’t let you really see them.
This dynamic reminds me of my patient. Her hypervigilance ended being GB excess. My patient seemed to be
Liver excess in this way of being unreachable/clouded over but SJ+ was one of the few treatments she clearly
reacted negatively to.
Adina_Kletzel: December 10, 2020, 10:26pm
KristinWisgirda:
Her hypervigilance ended being GB excess.
But hypervigilance is not a GB excess quality…
Did she have anything about her at all that was aggressive? forceful? angry?
Now that you know that she is GB excess what else do you see in her now that could have pointed you in that
direction earlier?
KristinWisgirda: December 10, 2020, 11:12pm
Adina_Kletzel:
hypervigilance is not a GB excess quality…18/01/2024, 11:09Shielding vs light sensitivity – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/shielding-vs-light-sensitivity/1432/print9/10
The nature of GB excess is “expansive heat and outward aggression”. Hypervigilance is an expansive and outward
orientation and can certainly be place on the spectrum of GB excess.
Adina_Kletzel:
Did she have anything about her at all that was aggressive? forceful? angry?
On the surface no aggression or anger. Under the surface lots of forcefully assertive responsiveness.
Refer to page 63 of the advanced class powerpoint for details of this case. It is a very, very unusual situation that
has helped me better recognize Gb excess under the veneer of P excess. It really helps to boil the channel excesses
down to their essences as presented in the intro powerpoint. The additional words we lay over these essential
movements can disorient us at times.
amyjenner: January 4, 2021, 11:36pm
What caught my eye was the “attacked” by light… If that is her language, that is interesting…Much more GB than
Liv.
Is that the class from September?
KristinWisgirda: January 5, 2021, 12:21am
Yes, the class from September. I didn’t mention in the case that she has loads of skin tags on her eyelids-
convexities of a sort.
amyjenner: January 6, 2021, 12:43am
How do I find notes that have page numbers, or did you number them yourself?
KristinWisgirda: January 6, 2021, 1:01am
The pages don’t have numbers on them but show up in my attempts to navigate the pdf. You will find this case
after T’s 71 yo male with sob worse from smoke inhalation.
1 Like18/01/2024, 11:09Shielding vs light sensitivity – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
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