Daniel: August 21, 2019, 11:23pm
I have a patient who wakes often in the early morning and finds his mind ruminating – mainly about his interactions
with other people in the preceding days . . . ‘what did they mean when they said that?’, ‘Did I answer that
correctly?’, ‘Maybe I should have said this and not that’ . . . . .and he says he cannot turn it off – it iterates and
escalates and keeps him awake. He also says his head feels like its cloudy and in a wet towel – and frankly, when
you hear him speak, its actually like he is speaking through a wet towel – kind of muffled. In Chinese Medicine,
this is all pretty classic Spleen domain material! Would it fit with Spleen Excess in the Sa’Am system? Some other
observations of this patient in particular . . . . interestingly, while he is very busy, very active athletically, socially,
runs his own business – to be honest . . . he strikes me as ‘bored’ in the sense that even though he is very busy and
engaged with things, he seems remarkably uninspired and flat about it all. He has nasal congestion. Even though he
is quite active in sports, his flesh below his skin – his ‘fatty flesh’ is loose and wobbly – not firm (you know those
people who are not overweight because they are active and eat well BUT you can tell, they could easily be
overweight?). He also has developed jock itch (dampness). So my main question was the original one – is excessive
rumination a Spleen Excess sign or symptom in Sa’Am? And I guess my second question is – on the matter of
‘boredom’ as a Spleen sign / symptom . . . can that include someone who is active and ‘busy’ but gives off the clear
and distinct impression they are really not very inspired, excited, turned on (in other words, ‘bored’ even though
they may not admit it that way)?
amyjenner: August 22, 2019, 12:37am
I see why you are thinking about this as a spleen symptom and I am wondering about looking at it through a GBxs
lens. He is waking to early (busting out of sleep), then he is reviewing interactions he had the day before
(questioning if it was “just and exact” ie did I respond appropriately). I would try PC+ and see how that helps the
sleep and the reviewing the lists of interactions and possible missteps. It seems like a certain flavor of anxiety.
Daniel: August 22, 2019, 1:05am
Except he is so NOT GB excess at all! No Mike Tyson in this guy. None.
George_Mandler: August 22, 2019, 3:09am
Toby has said to not always believe a patient. (There was one case where the patient said to Toby “oh I never get
angry at others and only at myself” . – Toby supplemented PC+ because he said he could feel passive aggressive
anger coming out towards him) .To you it seems he is “bored” and not inspired – the practitioner’s perspective
holds a lot of weight in this system.16/01/2024, 12:29Rumination – Excess Spleen Symptom in Sa’Am? – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/rumination-excess-spleen-symptom-in-saam/523/print2/5
If this fellow has moist skin or sweats easily it is screaming for LI+ IMO, especially with damp jock itch. That may
dry out his damp ruminating thoughts.
Joanne_Tait: August 22, 2019, 3:46am
I recall reading or hearing that GB excess can also be changing quickly from one thing to another, so not
necessarily aggressive, but outward and quickly changing… like thoughts, perhaps. I’d agree with Amy that
pericardium might be good to try, as well as LI.
Daniel: August 26, 2019, 7:38pm
So – five days ago, I gave this guy a Sa’Am Large Intestine supplementation treatment – supplementing Stomach
36 and Large Intestine 11 and draining Small Intestine 5 and Large Intestine 5 – all on the left. He just reported
back to me. He has been a regular monthly patient of mine for over a year by the way. This was his first Sa’Am
treatment. He reported the treatment was exceptionally ‘dramatic’ with, on the following day a very clear mind
(usually he is ‘super foggy’), a state of exceptional calmness, a reduction in his jock itch and a deep long sleep that
was not interrupted in the early morning by rumination. 3 and 4 days after treatment, he reports still experiencing
deep and long sleep uninterrupted by early morning rumination and a much clearer mind with morning mind fog
essentially gone. Sounds like ‘dampness’ on the outside and inside was spot on . . . .lets see what happens when I
see him again in a few weeks . . . . .
michaelmax: August 26, 2019, 9:44pm
Daniel:
I have a patient who wakes often in the early morning and finds his mind ruminating – mainly about his
interactions with other people in the preceding days . . . ‘what did they mean when they said that?’, ‘Did I
answer that correctly?’, ‘Maybe I should have said this and not that’ . . . . .and he says he cannot turn it off – it
iterates and escalates and keeps him awake. He also says his head feels like its cloudy and in a wet towel – and
frankly, when you hear him speak, its actually like he is speaking through a wet towel – kind of muffled. In
Chinese Medicine, this is all pretty classic Spleen domain material! Would it fit with Spleen Excess in the
Sa’Am system?
Hi @Daniel, yep he fits the description of Spleen Excess to me.
I like your perspective that while he is “busy” there is a flatness of affect that goes with it. And that mental
rumination… while Toby has not mentioned this, I take it as Spleen excess until proven otherwise.
Sounds like your +LI did indeed bring profound change. Well played!16/01/2024, 12:29Rumination – Excess Spleen Symptom in Sa’Am? – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/rumination-excess-spleen-symptom-in-saam/523/print3/5
Adina_Kletzel: August 29, 2019, 8:57pm
That is very interesting. Did you hear that from Toby? It would change my picture of GB excess if the person did
not necessarily have to be aggressive but could be one who changes quickly from one thing to another. Have others
seen/heard this as well?
amyjenner: August 29, 2019, 11:25pm
have heard Toby say that GBxs includes rapidly changing mood.
Daniel: August 30, 2019, 12:17am
Yes, its in the class powerpoint . . . and emphasised as primarily sudden outbursts of anger
Joanne_Tait: August 30, 2019, 9:04pm
Thanks for backing me up y’all. I thought that was correct. I’ve had good results with P+ treatments for folks I
would never classify as the Mike Tyson of old (ear biter) versus the new and improved friendly bird-watcher he’s
become. Maybe someone treated his pericardium and balanced him out
KristinWisgirda: September 5, 2019, 7:52pm
Adina_Kletzel:
It would change my picture of GB excess if the person did not necessarily have to be aggressive but could be
one who changes quickly from one thing to another.
Aggression is at the far end of the spectrum of GB excess. The ability to move into space, react quickly, be
assertive in voice and action- these all all are part of the wind and thunder of GB. It is helpful to step back and look
at what necessary function each channel quality has.
In contrast, the Pericardium is grounded, slow moving, and only acts after much consideration.16/01/2024, 12:29Rumination – Excess Spleen Symptom in Sa’Am? – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/rumination-excess-spleen-symptom-in-saam/523/print4/5
amyjenner:
have heard Toby say that GBxs includes rapidly changing mood.
Daniel:
Yes, its in the class powerpoint . . . and emphasised as primarily sudden outbursts of anger
Anger for sure but labile emotions in general also point to GB excess. I see this all the time with my patients and
supplementing P really helps. They don’t have to be angry at all. If really extreme, you also might want to throw a
bucket of ice water on them with UB+.
michaelmax: September 7, 2019, 1:49am
Adina_Kletzel:
It would change my picture of GB excess if the person did not necessarily have to be aggressive but could be
one who changes quickly from one thing to another. Have others seen/heard this as well?
It’s already been stated here… changeable in mood and motion.
Changeable as interested in different things can be Lg Intestine attribute as well. As in different projects or ideas to
work with.
GB is more about emotional lability. There is a sense of outward forcefulness. (patients that seem “nice” in the
content their speech, but you find yourself backing up, or can not get word in edgewise because of their forceful
outward energy, also can be seen as GB excess)
Daniel: September 10, 2019, 7:23pm
Seeing him again – two full weeks later and improvements have maintained. . . no longer waking up and
ruminating. Sleeping through the night. Clearer Mind / Morning Mind Fog better. Calmer. Jock itch improved. All
with just one Large Intestine supplementation on August 22.
alisonmorgan: September 26, 2019, 5:34pm
Can this also present as rapidly changing symptoms?16/01/2024, 12:29Rumination – Excess Spleen Symptom in Sa’Am? – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/rumination-excess-spleen-symptom-in-saam/523/print5/5
KristinWisgirda #16September 26, 2019, 7:16pm
Rapidly changing symptoms in general are NOT indicating GB excess unless the symptoms are emotions.
alisonmorgan: September 26, 2019, 11:58pm
Gotcha, thank you for the clarification.