amyjenner: April 21, 2019, 12:40am
In the webinar today, Toby recommended I use Lu for the ascending direction in my incontinent patient. I am
assuming that is the direction of the channel flow from lung 1 to 11 with the arms raised, that would be considered
ascending. I usually think of the Lu as descending as that is one of its primary functions. Is that correct thinking?
michaelmax: April 22, 2019, 1:09am
Hi @amyjenner, good question.
Yes, I generally thinking of the lung as descending and diffusing. Like you I heard Toby talk about using it to
ascend qi. I also heard him say this over the weekend in Amherst.
I often think of the lung as a kind of pump, it moves qi in all directions… breath in, breath out.
Also we think of the Spleen as having an ascending function and both lung and spleen do share that Taiyin
resonance. So, that’s something to consider.
Please keep us posted on your case and let us know if treating the lung helps.
ngmatthews: October 4, 2021, 5:15pm
Years ago I heard an idea about the Lung, that tonification of it could help with things falling out. Kind of like
when you hold the top of a straw full of liquid to keep it from falling out. This has to do with fluid metabolism,
which is think is different from the Lung Qi descending, which has to do more with breathing.
Ryan_Gallagher: April 22, 2019, 2:01pm
To piggyback on this question about directionality: A patient has severe nausea, yet seems dry inside and out. I’m
considering supplementing ST to stimulate a strong descending stimulus (despite the inner dryness). In this case, it
seems like the severity of the PF outweighs the constitution. Does this seem like sound Sa’am thinking?
amyjenner #5April 22, 2019, 3:44pm04/01/2024, 12:11Lu Channel Ascending – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/lu-channel-ascending/124/print2/5
That is helpful. I think of that as a ma huang situation when it is extreme and there is a closed exterior. So maybe a
little closure would help.
amyjenner: April 22, 2019, 3:46pm
I hear Toby say that like with herbs, we sometimes sacrifice the constitution temporarily to resolve an issue. Then
going back afterwards to suport
KristinWisgirda: April 22, 2019, 4:41pm
A non Sa’am idea on nausea first: Sharon Weizenbaum looks at nausea simply as disrupted T+T and not an upward
movement per se. This has been a useful perspective clinically. Vomiting and regurgitation are symptoms that more
clearly want descent.
I’ve had patients where P+ and Liv+ have been helpful for nausea.
@Ryan_Gallagher How much descent is really needed? How internally dry is this patient and how safe would it
be to dry him/her out further? What else is going on?
Let us know what you decide and how it goes.
Ryan_Gallagher: April 22, 2019, 5:51pm
Thanks for asking, @KristinWisgirda
I’ll share a few details of this case—let me know what you think!
This patient has been dealing with severe nausea/vomiting for almost 20 years (he’s 65 now). There are two very
interesting details: 1) the nausea/vom arrives whenever he has the urge to evacuate his bowels; and 2) the only
thing that helps alleviate the nausea is a hot shower stream between the scapulae. This might be “cannabinoid
hyperemesis syndrome”—a phenomenon resulting from daily marijuana smoking for many decades. However, he
doesn’t really want to consider that, since he’s so invested in continuing to smoke (which does mildly relieve his
nausea).
His entire life is impacted by this condition (he needs to be near a bathroom at all times). He can spend hours in the
shower on any given day. He’s thin and prone to very hard stool, difficult to pass. Loves to drink cold water and eat
frozen pops (we’re workin’ on that one). Has urinary urgency. He’s exhausted from this hell that he’s been through.
He feels like our sessions together are the only thing that’s giving him hope for recovery (we’ve had some success
with herbs recently, which he’s very encouraged by).
I started him on Sa’am last week with a +SP treatment, which he experienced as being really soothing (he wasn’t
feeling nauseous at the time).
Thanks for any thoughts!04/01/2024, 12:11Lu Channel Ascending – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/lu-channel-ascending/124/print3/5
KristinWisgirda: April 22, 2019, 9:14pm
Interesting case! Sounds like the nausea goes on for hours if he wants to spend so much time in the shower. Any
relationship between the level of difficulty of passing stool and the intensity of the nausea/vomiting?
And what about his resistance to giving up weed? What does it do for him.
I recently had a case of cannabinoid hyperemesis. Once she figured out what it was and stopped using the problem
went away.
michaelmax: April 23, 2019, 3:59am
KristinWisgirda:
A non Sa’am idea on nausea first: Sharon Weizenbaum looks at nausea simply as disrupted T+T and not an
upward movement per se.
@KristinWisgirda, I’m not sure what T+T means, although once you clue me in, I’ll probably be smacking my
forehead
michaelmax: April 23, 2019, 4:04am
Ryan_Gallagher:
He can spend hours in the shower on any given day. He’s thin and prone to very hard stool, difficult to pass.
Loves to drink cold water and eat frozen pops (we’re workin’ on that one)
@Ryan_Gallagher I would take this to mean that he is depleted in fluids and he’s hot on the inside. I’d be very
cautious with +ST. He already did well with +SP, maybe do that again fro another treatment or two and see what
happens.
20 years is a long time to have a problem, once treatment will likely not cure it. I’ve heard Toby say “we are
looking for slow miracles.”
Also with the desire for cold, you can consider +UB and see if that will shift his love of cold. UB is both cold and
fluid, so it could shift his constitution. Which is dry and hot.
KristinWisgirda #12April 23, 2019, 10:59am04/01/2024, 12:11Lu Channel Ascending – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/lu-channel-ascending/124/print4/5
T+T= Transformation and transportation
amyjenner: April 23, 2019, 1:09pm
transformation and transportation
KristinWisgirda: April 23, 2019, 1:29pm
With regard to patient behaviors and habits, such as thirst for icy drinks, it can be helpful to ask is this diagnostic,
an obstacle to treatment or both? A real craving that he is resistant to changing says diagnostic to me.
The hot dry state of the gi tract makes me more curious about UB+ as a treatment. I’m with @michaelmax and
would hesitate to dry the interior with St+ treatment.
ngmatthews: October 4, 2021, 5:15pm
Toby has stated that the Stomach is a strong descending function, so this makes sense, however, I don’t think you
should completely ignore the constitution.
Jeffrey: August 27, 2019, 10:20pm
Aggreed. @michaelmax, I had a recent patient with nausea and some various heat signs and had internal dryness.
With everything else going on +UB didn’t fit constitutionally, but there were seemingly enough qualities to support
the tx. The patient’s nausea was better in 10 min. I wasn’t real sure initially as he was cold too,
But it was a good learning experience.
lienemann: June 22, 2021, 10:39am
Hi @Ryan_Gallagher,
I know this was a year ago, but I’m still curious if you managed to get any results treating this man’s “cannabinoid
hyperemesis syndrome”?
I see a fair amount of people with “cyclic vomiting”, as we call it in the ER, and the only thing that’ll help them is
to stop smoking weed.04/01/2024, 12:11Lu Channel Ascending – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/lu-channel-ascending/124/print5/5