amyjenner: July 29, 2019, 12:29am
Michael, I went back and listened to the webinar again. In my case with the guy with no sense of smell and hesitant
urination. we were talking about LU+ for him as a STxs type. You said you thought LU+ might also help with the
hesitancy. Why would it help? Descending?
KristinWisgirda: July 29, 2019, 2:48pm
Thanks for the interesting case yesterday Amy.
Lung+ is more ascending in contrast to Stomach+ being descending. I don’t understand why Lung+ would help
with hesitant urine and will wait for Michael’s reply.
Raui: July 29, 2019, 6:29pm
My guess is that Lung regulates the water passages and therefore tonifying lung helps this function? I once heard
of a case where a man in his 50s was having a hard time urinating, the doctor put bleach under his nose as
something pungent to try stimulate him and it worked! Interestingly from a tang ye jing perspective this would be
reducing lung…hmmm.
Also I’m probably going to reveal myself as ignorant here but isn’t the lungs direction of qi descending? As in its
function of dispersing and descending. Also the model of the liver ascending on the right and lung descending on
the left has the qi direction as down. I don’t understand the comment above re stomach descending and lung
ascending and would love to fill any gaps in my understanding.24/01/2024, 11:47LU+ and Hesitant urination – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/lu-and-hesitant-urination/420/print2/7
KristinWisgirda: July 29, 2019, 6:43pm
Raui:
I don’t understand the comment above re stomach descending and lung ascending and would love to fill any
gaps in my understanding.
Sine we are in the Sa’am clinical questions of the forum, we are talking Sa’am specific diagnosis and function
which certainly overlaps other branches but is not the same in all of its thinking.
Raui: July 29, 2019, 6:52pm
Aha! Thanks Kirstin. Would you mind sharing the directions of the organs as viewed in the Saam system? I don’t
remember that explicitly mentioned in the course.
KristinWisgirda: July 29, 2019, 9:40pm
Here’s what my notes say with my own commentary in parethesis:
The Lung+ primarily descends but also descends a little. (In a discussion on prolapses, T mentioned that you could
use Lung+ for its lifting action, even without strong St excess signs).
The Stomach descends. (I’ve seen Toby use it clinically for that action specifically with the right presentation.)
GB+ ascends and moves out. (In the prolapse discussion, T said that GB+ could be used to lift but, of course, the
presentation must really, really fit.)
P+ moves in.
K+ consolidates.
SI+ creates dynamic movement.
SJ+ focuses outward.
Liv+ focuses inward.
5 Likes
Taran: July 29, 2019, 9:54pm
KristinWisgirda:
The Lung+ primarily descends but also descends a little. (In a discussion on prolapses, T mentioned that you
could use Lung+ for its lifting action, even without strong St excess signs).24/01/2024, 11:47LU+ and Hesitant urination – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/lu-and-hesitant-urination/420/print3/7
@KristinWisgirda did you mean the Lu+ primarily descends, but also ascends a little?
KristinWisgirda: July 29, 2019, 10:52pm
Thanks for catching the inconsistency.
The Lung when supplemented primarily ascends but also descends a little. Thus it can be used for prolapses. You
can also think of the action of the Lung as accumulating, which is why people with Lung excess are fat bankers for
whom resources come and stay easily.
Note to self: Must reread posts before pressing “reply”.
Taran: July 29, 2019, 11:35pm
Thanks! And agreed on the reread. I meant to say “Lu+ primarily ascends but also descends a little.”
Pure comedy.
amyjenner: July 30, 2019, 12:47am
And SP+? I think it is ascending as well…
KristinWisgirda: July 30, 2019, 1:04pm
I’ve never heard Toby explicitly say this. There might have been a conversation where someone mentioning SP+
being ascending and Toby didn’t discount it. But in discussions of prolapse and leakages, SP+ hasn’t come up as a
treatment option. GB+ and Lung+ were pointed to as the lifting treatments specifically.
But …
The thread of Heavy menstruation with Kid XS
got me thinking about controlling leakages and losses and things falling down. LI+ (albeit with Sp1 moxa) helped
control bleeding in a water logged patient. This showed that LI+ by its function of double drying can help firm
things up. Toby has mentioned that it is used to strengthen weak teeth, bones and gums.
Even though it isn’t explicitly ascending per se, Sp+ in a very LI excess patient could potentially have the same
effect. T mentioned in the last Crowdcast that Sp+ can be very effective for watery diarrhea in very dry, skinny
people. In this regard, I think of Sp+ as moistening by increasing the capacity to absorb fluids back into the right
place. When tissues have the right fluid balance, not too wet or dry, then fluids are held in the right place and the
body functions as it should.
It all comes back to really discerning what this patient needs to function well. Clinic is hard sometimes!24/01/2024, 11:47LU+ and Hesitant urination – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/lu-and-hesitant-urination/420/print4/7
amyjenner: July 31, 2019, 12:45am
I can’t remember where I got that SP was ascending. It was in the context of a patient I have that has some spinal
nerve damage due to a fistula (thoracic) and anal and vulva cancer radiation. She has bladder leakage when she
gets up to pee at night (mostly) though it can happen during the day going from sitting to standing. She also has
fecal incontinence sometimes. It is not always loose stool either. I think it might have been a webinar that I
participated in and asked about the case. It was recommended that I try LU and SP. Could be because of the idea of
SP putting the water back where it belongs too…
KristinWisgirda: July 31, 2019, 1:21pm
amyjenner:
Could be because of the idea of SP putting the water back where it belongs too…
In any discussion of the channel properties it is helpful to come back to the basic principles. GB/P/SJ/Liv have
clear directionality in their fundamental functions. Lung/St also have direction but maybe less so than the first 4
mentioned.
One might infer directionality from patient reaction to other treatments but these reactions of up/down/in/out come
from restoration of another function. For instance, the Saam Spleen isn’t fundamentally ascending even though
under the right conditions it may help with conditions like diarrhea. Just reading the recent thread
35 yr old female w migraine
CC: 35 yr old female, complaining of migraines. They come with light/sound/smell sensitivity. Sometimes
nausea. More frequently Rt sided but can be lft. Pain at the base of skull wraps around over cheek bones to
cover eye and forehead. Worse with changes (stress, weather, hormones, slp…),stress, grinding teeth, caffeine.
Better with meditation, darkness, cool room/warm blankets, quiet, sometimes movement.
Appearance/demeanor: She is nicely dressed, attractive, simple. She is warm and friendly.…
Here a P+ treatment created sensations of warmth for a cold patient. P is described in didactic discussion as slightly
cooling when Toby was pressed to put in on the hot/cold scale. So is it warming or cooling? My conclusion is that
the temperature of P isn’t really a fundamental aspect. If the practitioner in the post just mentioned avoided using
P+ because she was worried about being too cooling for her cold patient, her patient would have missed out on an
effective treatment.
michaelmax: August 1, 2019, 3:06am
24/01/2024, 11:47LU+ and Hesitant urination – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/lu-and-hesitant-urination/420/print5/7
amyjenner:
Michael, I went back and listened to the webinar again. In my case with the guy with no sense of smell and
hesitant urination. we were talking about LU+ for him as a STxs type. You said you thought LU+ might also
help with the hesitancy. Why would it help? Descending?
HI @amyjenner
Holy Smokes… an entire conversation has already unfolded here. I need to visit more often. And will have more
time after the NY class.
I was thinking that perhaps +LU would affect the urination through the zi wu (Chinese) clock relation, as UB and
LU are opposite each other.
One of the things I’ve found about Sa’am is that it encourages me to consider in other ways how organs and
functions relate to each other. I’m not sure if the zi wu clock relationships come into play here. Which is why I
suggested you watch for it to see.
Also, while Toby talks about the LU having an ascending quality, it also has a descending function. Just ask anyone
with a cough.
Likewise the SP is known in Chinese medicine for ascending the clear (but it gives the dirty work of descending
the turbid to the ST) And thus we find a power way to drive qi downward with the ST. Hummm… perhaps +ST
could be used to treat coughs in ppl with LU excess coughs. (It’s quite fun to see how Sa’am gives us insight into
the “dynamics”)
Tobydaly1: August 3, 2019, 7:48pm
michaelmax:
Hummm… perhaps +ST could be used to treat coughs in ppl with LU excess coughs.
Definitely…
Adina_Kletzel: February 26, 2020, 6:43pm
HOw exactly would you know if someone had a lung excess cough? How would that be differentiated from a St
excess cough?
KristinWisgirda: February 26, 2020, 8:11pm
24/01/2024, 11:47LU+ and Hesitant urination – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/lu-and-hesitant-urination/420/print6/7
Go back to the basics of Lung excess= dry exterior, damp interior
Stomach excess= damp exterior, dry interior.
Easy, right? Until you have to decide the definitions of exterior/interior, how wet is wet and how dry is dry.
There are lots of forum discussions of cough and all of the other channels that can be used besides Lung and
Stomach. Just search for a more in depth discussions and cases.
michaelmax: March 3, 2020, 10:52pm
Adina_Kletzel:
HOw exactly would you know if someone had a lung excess cough? How would that be differentiated from a
St excess cough?
Clinic is hard!
I think there are a number of ways of looking at this. If it is a weak feeble cough and dry, then you can think of it as
“weak lung qi and dry inside” in which case you’d tonify the LU to moisten and boost the qi.
Likewise, phlegmy and robust, then tonify the ST to dry in the inside.
But then there are those dry coughs that have a lot of force but not productive. Maybe tonify the LU to moisten. Or
if in a LI excess person, then tonify the SP which also moistens the Taiyin and will thus touch the LU.
This is the delight of this method. We have these principles, and we can “look” through the parameters in different
ways.
Daniel: March 6, 2020, 8:43pm
yes, I have had a number of patients recently with loud barky but very dry (no phlegm at all) coughs – and for many
of them, moistening the interior through either Sa’Am Lung or Spleen supplementation has been just the ticket.
Adina_Kletzel: March 8, 2020, 10:20pm
This is very helpful thank-you!
I was able to apply what you outlined so clearly today. I did a tonify LU for a very dry weak and feeble cough and
tonify St for a very wet cough.
The patient with a wet cough also had a very stuffed nose that she could not breathe through. After the treatment
she was able to blow her nose and relieve some of the congestion but she was still SO full of phlegm in her lungs
and nose.
On the webinar you mentioned draining Sp in these kinds of cases. I am considering that as well.24/01/2024, 11:47LU+ and Hesitant urination – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/lu-and-hesitant-urination/420/print7/7
She often feels just heavy and weighed down like she just cant get herself to do anything. She just seems so damp.
Can you tell me a case in which you drained damp and had good results?
Thanks!
KristinWisgirda: March 9, 2020, 10:00pm
Adina_Kletzel:
On the webinar you mentioned draining Sp in these kinds of cases. I am considering that as well.
I don’t recommend draining until you have received information directly from Toby. Spoiler- definitely do not
drain with the 4 point combos in the Journal of Chinese Medicine articles. Toby presented this information as
theoretical content when he thought he was dying. He rarely, rarely, rarely uses 4 point draining combos.
Do take the Geyserville class if you want to learn how to Saam Responsibly using draining. There are some
channels that he has never drained. There are some channels that absolutely should not be drained, possibly with
the exception of extreme circumstances.
Adina_Kletzel:
She just seems so damp.
Damp can be so tenacious by nature. There are a number of strategies to consider using supplementing to address
damp more strongly after you have tried the channels singly to know how the patient responds.
LI+ bilateral
LI+ and SI+ in the same treatment. The moving aspect of SI+ will help speed the metabolism of damp. If there is
St/ Lung channel involvement or other indications- St+ can be combined with SI+ too.
Lung + can be considered if the damp is exterior and there is dryness in the interior.
If there is cold H+ will add fire to dry.
Sometimes damp coexists with a Liver excess density that could be treated to lighten the patient up. SJ + isn’t
drying so you need to see a Liver excess picture to use it.