amyjenner: November 18, 2019, 12:36am
24 yr old Male, gets hives when body temp rises, ie exercise. The hives are mainly at the pivots (wrists, elbows,
crotch, neck) but then will eventually get to arms and legs. When they first appeared, they were head to toe. They
are red, raised and itch like mad. He has been taking zertec daily for 3.5 yrs at his Doc’s recommendation. They
still occur, just the intensity and duration are more tolerable with the zertec. It started late winter of junior year in
college and nothing particularly difficult was going on at the time.
Talking with him makes me elevate my vocabulary to the big words you read but never actually use in
conversation, because he does. He considers questions thoughtfully before answering. He is warm and friendly and
very curious about what OM is all about. He is a musician, from a wealthy family and doesn’t have to work to
make a living. (I know that because his family lives down the street).
Tall and slender
natty dresser +7.
symmetry: +5
seasonal depression +8
super polite and aware of others +8
Gets obsessive about his music, very self critical, worries especially about recordings because they are there
forever, “all my failures are out there” . He has a fear of being judged. Obsesses about “what if this person doesn’t
do it the way I want to make my project great”. Sometimes afraid to start a project because he feels taken over by
the obsessive energy. This is all his internal reality, and doesn’t express it with people.
When he was a kid, growing up with 2 brothers, he could be provoked to anger by their teasing and rough housing.
I really enjoy him for all his intensity/sensitivity, he really is a lovely human.
Hives:
red +6
itchy +8
w/w stress +5
mouth sores with stress +5
chronic stye with stress +5 ( he had a stye that showed up around the same time as the hives. it kept recurring in the
same spot. he now has a visible scar there though it is dormant now)
temp comfortable mostly, feet tend to be cold
digestion best if he avoids dairy. Otherwise gas and loose stool. Did a lot with naturopath on the hives which
included lots of food sensitivity testing and supplementation but to no avail
respiration good
sleep good
T: distended sublinguals
sl red
thick coat in the back
red tip16/01/2024, 11:50Hives with running – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/hives-with-running/742/print2/6
skin is moist.
thenar and heel plump and moist
Diag:
SJxs- self criticism, perfectionist, v. polite, aware of others
Livxs- depression in dark of winter
PCxs- super intellectual, quiet, deliberate
Kidxs- bld stag distended sublinguals, windy symptom
HTxs- heat on the surface tai yang
STxs- thin with moist skin (though no resource prob)
Things I’ve tried:
BL+ – no change
SI+ – text 2 days later to report slight improvement in hives lasted a day or so
Liv+ – made him restless, didn’t sit well so switched to SJ
Maybe LU+ would be the next obvious choice…as body type and the LU relationship to skin…
I don’t seem to have found the root…thoughts would be appreciated
KristinWisgirda: November 18, 2019, 1:09am
Hi Amy,
Thanks for another interesting case. I don’t have any great insight, just more questions.
The Lung/St axis is interesting.
amyjenner:
gets hives when body temp rises,
Presumably, his skin is sweaty when his body temp rises. And then the stye could be on the Stomach channel.
Plump thenars and good resources. Such a mix. How moist is his surface? Does he report profuse sweating when
exercising?
How bloated is he?
The red tip of the tongue is also intriguing as it is a Gb excess sign when it is much redder than the body. His chief
complaint is also a busting out kind of sign, moreso if the hives are raised. Is there an aggressive edge lurking
under his lovely humanness and his big, carefully chosen words, besides some anger at brother antics?
And then the response to Liv+. Hmmm. How did he respond to SJ+? Is there a chance you need to toggle
Liv+/SJ+, especially in the darkest days of the year?
K excess is a strong diagnosis for him, adding the natty dresser and plump heel, and the itching being so
prominent. His response wasn’t great to SI+ but maybe good enough to repeat?16/01/2024, 11:50Hives with running – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/hives-with-running/742/print3/6
Some piece is missing here. Are the hives any worse in the cold?
rappeports: November 18, 2019, 12:53pm
This is a case I would try herbs for. Please try *Gui zhi ma huang ge ban tang.*It more strongly than Gui zhi tang
releases the exterior for wind-cold stuck in the surface. .I love SAAM but sometimes a formula is screaming to be
used…
amyjenner: November 19, 2019, 12:59am
Thanks, I will give it a try
…
amyjenner: November 19, 2019, 2:05am
He doesn’t report any unusual sweating, but the hives happen with sweat because of the exercise.
Not bloated as long as he avoids the dairy
I think the hives are the busting out of a lot of repression. The hives are raised. I haven’t been able to find an
aggressive edge but I imagine he gets very Lawyerly in his arguments.
I agree toggling Liv+/SJ+ is probably what is called for where there are significant signs of excess in both.
I was surprised that SI+ didn’t garner better results given the Kid xs signs. It likely is good enough to try again.
The more I use Sa’am, the more I realize that order matters. In other words, SI+ may not have been right for the
day I tried it, but it is very likely right for a different day. I’m thinking maybe something else has to happen first.
The hives are not worse in the cold. He was in Cuba for a couple of months and initially the hives were worse until
he acclimated to the constant heat there.
I think I need to back up a little. I was trying to simplify things for the sake of the case but, maybe I made it more
confusing. When he first came, back in July, even though he came for the hives as his main complaint, he was not
in a good place emotionally. He was dis-regulated with sleep- up to the wee hours making music and sleeping a lot
of the day. Not having to work means he doesn’t have much structure to his time and it wasn’t good for him. With
the stye, red tip tongue, hives tending to be in the pivot areas, mouth sores… there was a lot of heat above. I was
thinking about shao yang. The obsession and hives seem like busting out symptoms. And with all the heat above
and the dislike of the winter dark, I could make a case for SJ+. I did an SJ+ treatment and it was profound. He just
wept. After that, he felt lighter, less obsessive about the music, and more access to his emotions. Over time, he was
able to make a little structure around regular sleep/wake hours, regular eating, etc . The first 2 treatments were SJ+.
Then he complained of some anxiety, waking with a start anxious that he had over slept and missed something. I
did PC+ 2 times. He started feeling more focused, more emotional resiliency, more regular bed time. And then I did
the treatments listed above because the hives were the only thing that really hadn’t changed with the 1st 4
treatments.
Hopefully that didn’t just muddy things.16/01/2024, 11:50Hives with running – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/hives-with-running/742/print4/6
amyjenner: November 19, 2019, 2:10am
KristinWisgirda:
And then the response to Liv+. Hmmm. How did he respond to SJ+?
I got a text the day after this treatment where I started with LIv+ and switched to SJ+ that the hives were reduced
when he went for a run later that day, but it didn’t last to subsequent days…
KristinWisgirda: November 19, 2019, 9:29pm
amyjenner:
Hopefully that didn’t just muddy things.
Your explanation really fleshed out the patient for us.
Even though the results weren’t stellar for either, it is helpful to see that SI+ and SJ+ gave at least temporary relief
to the hives. Movement and bright, outward orientation.
rappeports:
Gui zhi ma huang ge ban tang.
I like this idea. It fits very well with SI+/SJ+.
It sounds like this young man has been lost in a way. Looking at the case again, I can see better the compressed
inwardness behind the well behaved, considerate presentation. I’m not liking the Liv+ idea as much right now.
Your case has got me thinking about obsessiveness and Saam.
amyjenner:
Obsesses about “what if this person doesn’t do it the way I want to make my project great”.
This line reminds me of a very handsome, well dressed, super smart young man, diamond eyes, with paresthesias
all over his body, diagnosed as small fiber neuropathy. He wasn’t sleeping because he was guarding his baby
daughter all night and wouldn’t let anyone near her. At first, I thought SJ excess control or GB excess
defensiveness. Discussing this case with Toby, he said the guarding his daughter was more Kidney excess- too
much consolidated self protecting his creation.16/01/2024, 11:50Hives with running – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/hives-with-running/742/print5/6
I am also reminded of a very, very Liver excess friend whose obsession with playing music excluded participating
in other aspects of life.
More to ponder.
So if the last 4 treatments were UB+, SI+, Liv+ and SJ+, I might consider repeating the SI+ again.
amyjenner:
The more I use Sa’am, the more I realize that order matters.
Agreed. Please let us know. Thanks, always for your great thought provoking cases.
amyjenner: November 20, 2019, 12:21am
He agreed to try the formula, so I’ll let you know how it goes…
Ryan_Gallagher: November 20, 2019, 2:44pm
Just wondering: Where are you folks getting your Mahuang?
KristinWisgirda: November 20, 2019, 3:09pm
I order it in granular form from Kamwo. They only dispense in as part of a formula so I order the maximum
allowed percentage in combination with xing ren and gan cao. I use that as a modular to build other formulas.
amyjenner: November 20, 2019, 7:13pm
I order it from jade mountain herbs. They are in Taiwan and will ship directly. I order 8, 100g bottles at a time. $19
to ship (I’m in Maine)
pattycakes: December 29, 2019, 8:03pm
That is genius, thanks for sharing!16/01/2024, 11:50Hives with running – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/hives-with-running/742/print6/6
KristinWisgirda: December 30, 2019, 12:17am
Jade Mountain herbs has awesome customer service. Don’t forget to order some xi xin while you are at it.