Adina_Kletzel: May 6, 2020, 10:49am
HI!
Here in Israel we have been allowed to reopen our clinics so I actually have a case!
20 year old guy. skinny, muscular, fit. Loves to work out – running, weight lifting…
Has been home for the past 2 months so has put a lot of time into working out.
His legs – especially upper thighs have started feeling very heavy. It’s hard to pick them up when running but they
feel even heavier and tired after the run. He is also more tired than usual.
Also having trouble taking deep breaths. Chest feels tight.
Stools are loose, thirsty, mouth and throat dry.
Also gave blood last week and the area on his arm that they stuck with a needle is all black and blue and a bit warm
still.
Ht + feels more hot than cold
LI + dry mouth and throat, thirsty
LIv + heavy legs
SJ + slow healing wounds – has lingering black and blue marks
GB + tightness in chest
St + tired
kid + symmetrical
The truth is that I am not exactly sure where to place the heavy legs.
I think they are coming more from Sp def. and liver bld def. – bld not circulating downward to legs so I dont think
it is from SJ+.
Also – I know in Saam that numbness is a sign of damp but is heaviness also a sign of damp in Saam?
I was also curious where you would place the characteristic of someone who pushes themselves so hard to work
out – to the point of exhaustion? I would think maybe SJ+ – too hyper focused on a goal.
Or Kid + – care so much about outer appearance.
I did Liv+ cuz I felt his blood was weak and not circulating well.
I did not hear back yet but I was wondering what others thought.
Thank-you,
Adina
KristinWisgirda: May 6, 2020, 12:27pm
So nice to have a Saam case! Thank you for sharing.
Adina_Kletzel:
SJ + slow healing wounds – has lingering black and blue marks15/01/2024, 16:25Heaviness of legs – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/heaviness-of-legs/1020/print2/4
Slowly resolving black and blue marks are a blood stasis sign. Add that to K excess, but also keep in mind poor
blood circulation at the surface. Not SJ excess. Slow healing wounds, if they were sores or cuts, could be a sign of
damp at the surface (ST excess or Sp excess).
Adina_Kletzel:
His legs – especially upper thighs have started feeling very heavy. It’s hard to pick them up when running but
they feel even heavier and tired after the run. He is also more tired than usual.
A symptom that is worse with movement and worse after movement could be SI excess but I wouldn’t jump to
treat Kidney with a 20 year old symmetrical man who likely is exercising to the point of exhaustion.
How moist is his skin? Does he experience the heaviness in a particular channel trajectory or just generally?
Adina_Kletzel:
I was also curious where you would place the characteristic of someone who pushes themselves so hard to
work out – to the point of exhaustion?
I am really curious about this too. Will he talk about his motivation? If he doesn’t exercise this much, what does he
experience?
Adina_Kletzel:
SJ+ – too hyper focused on a goal.
Goal oriented is not my understanding of SJ excess. Outwardly focused- yes. Anyway, does he definitely have a
goal with all this exercise?
Adina_Kletzel:
Also having trouble taking deep breaths. Chest feels tight.
When does this happen?
Let us know what happens.
1 Like15/01/2024, 16:25Heaviness of legs – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/heaviness-of-legs/1020/print3/4
KristinWisgirda: May 6, 2020, 3:08pm
It is helpful for the writer and the reader to grade the symptoms +1 to +10. It helps us see the patient better. How
heavy are his legs? Is he laid up in bed for the rest of the day from them or is it a milder discomfort? How hot is
he? How tight is his chest? This also extends to identifying the grossest thing in the room.
Adina_Kletzel: May 11, 2020, 7:21am
Adina_Kletzel:
Ht + feels more hot than cold +6
LI + dry mouth and throat, thirsty +6
LIv + heavy legs +9
SJ + slow healing wounds – has lingering black and blue marks +7
GB + tightness in chest +7
St + tired +7
kid + symmetrical +8
the grossest thing in the room in the heaviness of his legs
he feels tired but can function – can still push himself through a run
his skin is not oily
I have not talked to him about his motivation for running. I have not seen him again yet.
THat is all the info I have for now.
I just wanted to understand if heaviness in the legs is a characteristic of excess in any one of the channels in
particular.
KristinWisgirda: May 11, 2020, 12:49pm
Adina_Kletzel:
slow healing wounds – has lingering black and blue marks +7
I still wouldn’t put this under SJ excess. Maybe you are thinking this is a blood xu sign? Not for sure. See my
previous discussion for more possibilities. As well, if the slow healing wound situation is isolated to the one blood
draw incident I would give it low clinical weight. Maybe the phlebotomist really manipulated the needle in such a
way that anyone would have deep bruising that would be slower to resolve.
As for the heaviness of Liver excess: In the intro course, Toby used the word “heavy” along with “plodding” to
describe Liver excess movement qualities, compared to “light and floating” SJ excess. The tissue quality of Liver15/01/2024, 16:25Heaviness of legs – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/heaviness-of-legs/1020/print4/4
is “dense”. Does his movement quality support “heavy” or is it more of a felt sense?
Adina_Kletzel:
I just wanted to understand if heaviness in the legs is a characteristic of excess in any one of the channels in
particular.
Theoretically, you could attribute the “heavy” quality to Spleen excess dampness, Liver excess density, or St
excess tiredness.
Thirst could mean the Stomach wants water (internal dryness) which could also go along with Stomach excess and
dry mouth means the mouth wants water (external dryness) which technically could go along with Lung excess.
Your symptom analysis, as you have written it down, is very sparse and limited and might be more of a hindrance
than a help in the way that you are using it. You didn’t even write down what channels are involved with the leg
heaviness. The point of it is to write down all of the information from your keen Saam observations so you can see
it in one place. The signs and symptoms will pile up under certain channels. Then the trick is to sense into what is
the most true for the patient.