Adina_Kletzel: March 3, 2020, 9:20am
I have a patient who has used the words “I feel so unlucky” numerous times. I would love to tonify Lu for her but
she is more damp on the inside, dry on the outside and Lu 10 area is puffed out so I haven’t.
How else can I address this unlucky feeling? Alternatively, would you think to tonify LU anyway in order to
address this unlucky feeling?
KristinWisgirda: March 3, 2020, 10:56am
Another case where psychological presentation contradicts the morphological. Clinic is hard/fun!
Besides perceived lack of resources, could the unlucky feeling point to a tendency to a cold disconnected or dark
outlook, ie a need for H+ or SJ+?
Adina_Kletzel:
would you think to tonify LU anyway in order to address this unlucky feeling?
This is the kind of judgement call every patient encounter asks of us. What is the grossest thing in the room? What
is the patient’s priority? How does the unlucky feeling relate to the overall presentation?
pattycakes: March 3, 2020, 7:47pm
Or Kid+ for low self worth? Do they show SI excess symptoms?15/01/2024, 16:36Feeling unlucky and Lu+ – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/feeling-unlucky-and-lu/933/print2/6
Adina_Kletzel #4March 3, 2020, 9:07pm
She feels that bad things happen to her. Her parents died relatively young, she has an autistic son, a son with
aspergers, horrible migraines, frozen shoulder… She just always feels unlucky and that something else is going to
go wrong.
She is a very mixed pattern with very hot above – with dark red cheeks, and colder below. She has pain so is kid
excess but has low self worth so is SI excess…
In any case, I think the question: What is the grossest thing in the room is a good one.
Sometimes the unlucky feelnigs really are the grossest thing in the room. And if I make that determination then is it
okay to put aside the damp/dry and try to infuse her with some more positive, upward, ‘lucky’ qi?
It seems to me that there is room for that in this system but I did want to hear your/others thoughts.
michaelmax: March 3, 2020, 10:33pm
Adina_Kletzel:
She is a very mixed pattern with very hot above
Hot above and cold below makes me think of TB excess. Also with “mixed” patterns I sometime think about
tonifying the SI to move it all around a bit. kind of shake it up!
“Unlucky” is an opinion, I’m curious to know what feelings she tends to gravitate toward. Sadness, anger,
frustration, melancholy… that kind of thing, it might help to give you some insight.
And finally, I’ve had patients that have one morphology, but they “behave and act” differently. For example, a LU+
person who behaves like a LI+. Treating the SP on her really took her to a quiet place. So I think there are times we
can pivot toward treating the personality (I’m always cautious around using the word “spirit,” mostly because it’s
hard to define “spirit” and we think we others know what we are talking about when we us that word, but I think
it’s a big source of misunderstanding)
But I digress. Maybe best to say, “sometimes body type, sometimes personality”
KristinWisgirda: March 3, 2020, 10:37pm
KristinWisgirda:
What is the patient’s priority? How does the unlucky feeling relate to the overall presentation?
These are also important questions.
A recent patient started agitated sobbing during the intake. 1/2 her body was covered with a red itchy rash. She
continued sobbing while I was needling SI+. For a second, I asked myself if I should add P+. The answer was no.15/01/2024, 16:36Feeling unlucky and Lu+ – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/feeling-unlucky-and-lu/933/print3/6
P+ maybe would have calmed her too but the real root of the agitated sobbing was the horrible itch she was
experiencing. The agitated sobbing seemed bigger even than her horrible rash but it was only a side effect of the
real issue at hand.
Adina_Kletzel:
And if I make that determination then is it okay to put aside the damp/dry and try to infuse her with some more
positive, upward, ‘lucky’ qi?
[/quote[quote=“Adina_Kletzel, post:4, topic:933”]
Her parents died relatively young, she has an autistic son, a son with aspergers, horrible migraines, frozen
shoulder
You really want to be sure that a St excess picture of an impaired ability to hold onto resources, real or perceived,
is present before using Lung+. I’m not sure that unlucky is the same thing.
michaelmax: March 4, 2020, 4:33am
KristinWisgirda:
You really want to be sure that a St excess picture of an impaired ability to hold onto resources, real or
perceived, is present before using Lung+. I’m not sure that unlucky is the same thing.
I’m with @KristinWisgirda on this. Dig into this a little further.
Adina_Kletzel: March 4, 2020, 8:51am
michaelmax:
I’m curious to know what feelings she tends to gravitate toward.
She can get depressed for sure and she also gets angry at what the world doles out to her and at her husband for his
inability to know how to help her cope.
I’ve done SJ, LIv, PC, SI, KId, St, Bl with her. She’s coming along nicely but still gets GB area migraines, is very
hot above, and has bad SJ and LU area shoulder pain.
michaelmax:
“sometimes body type, sometimes personality”
I would love if this were one of the principles of Saam but it doesnt seem to be…15/01/2024, 16:36Feeling unlucky and Lu+ – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/feeling-unlucky-and-lu/933/print4/6
KristinWisgirda:
You really want to be sure that a St excess picture of an impaired ability to hold onto resources, real or
perceived, is present before using Lung+.
I have to think about what this means exactly. She has a whole lot of challenge in her life. She has trouble holding
onto her ability to handle it. She often sinks into the thought patterns that make her situation worse than it really is.
So she does lose herself as her own resource…
That does fall into SI excess as well and KId + works nicely for her but I cant overdo it because she has pain that
does better with movement. I guess the question is how much do we break her ability to cope down? If she was St
excess in her physical attributes then LU+ would fit like a glove. But she is not and that is where the questions
come from. It seems that it may be best to stick with what is fitting and not try to use the words ‘unlucky’ to create
another pattern.
Another interesting thing about her is that her face is very dark – around her eyes and mouth are really blackish.
That has not change at all throughout the treatment. Does Saam have any perspective on that?
KristinWisgirda: March 4, 2020, 1:18pm
This sounds like one of the cases that you have mentioned a number of times on the forum and the last crowdcast.
Your longing to help this woman with so many difficulties is apparent. We likely all have patients with similar hard
luck who have been receiving longterm treatment with only modest improvements. It is good to keep reminding
yourself that her constitution and the intensity of the disease process are out of your hands, whatever comfort that
might give you. At the same time, we want to keep refreshing our perspectives on how best to serve the patient. It
sounds like you are doing just that. For these cases too, maybe there is some room for very carefully trying new
unconventional strategies. Very careful means the new strategy fits the quality of the day for the patient and isn’t
just a desperate grasping at an idea. Then applying excellent full on needling followed by watching the patient
closely for 5 minutes. So maybe for her, a day the Lung area shoulder is barking loudly, might be an opportunity to
try Lung +. Really get behind needling those hand points with full intention and confidence to get the best
treatment effect.
In these complicated, very chronic cases it is especially important to go through all of the symptoms and match
them to possible channel excesses. Having Lung channel pain definitely can be put in the box of possible St excess.
Here the body is speaking to you directly. This has much clearer clinical weight than “feeling unlucky” which is
potentially more complicated.
Adina_Kletzel:
her face is very dark – around her eyes and mouth are really blackish.
The black color pertains to the water phase and blood stasis. Maybe another pointer to Kidney excess.
1 Like15/01/2024, 16:36Feeling unlucky and Lu+ – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/feeling-unlucky-and-lu/933/print5/6
Adina_Kletzel: March 4, 2020, 3:19pm
KristinWisgirda:
This sounds like one of the cases that you have mentioned a number of times on the forum and the last
crowdcast.
It is actually a different case that I never mentioned before. I just have quite a few migraine cases.
THank-you so much for your response. You make a lot of sense.
LoganDyer: March 26, 2020, 1:23am
Adina_Kletzel:
I’ve done SJ, LIv, PC, SI, KId, St, Bl with her
Hi Adina,
Your description of her chronic pain, difficulty managing tough life situations, and that “she often sinks into the
thought patterns that make her situation worse than it really is,” make me think that dampness is likely a significant
issue.
I would love to hear more about her body type and other damp/dry signs you have noted. You describe her as damp
on the inside and dry on the outside. How has supplementing Stomach affected her? Does she have any rebellious
stomach qi? Any other signs that might make you want to supplement Stomach? I also wonder if the hot above and
cold below might be helped by descending the stomach qi so that yang is not stuck in the upper burner.
The dark face as well indicates to me that she may have a pattern in which there is dampness not allowing the
blood to move properly and also perhaps not allowing the skin to be nourished and therefore dry.
Are there any signs that LI+ might be appropriate? Any fog under the skin, pustular acne, general
sluggishness/boredom? I think Kristen W. may have mentioned on this forum that sometimes supplementing LI
and SI in the same treatment helps address the entangled nature of blood stasis and dampness.
Hope this reply helps
amyjenner: March 27, 2020, 2:29pm
I have found in these very complicated, chronic situations that treating the body morphology constitution has been
very helpful and clarifying. I had a recent patient, 36 yr old female, with a 17 year history with colitis. Has
managed with drugs and diet and a lot of support through practitioners of every kind to manage it pretty well. The15/01/2024, 16:36Feeling unlucky and Lu+ – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/feeling-unlucky-and-lu/933/print6/6
corona virus stress put her over the edge. Skinny, not dry skin and very needy. She found herself stranded with
friends (in my area) and basically afraid to go home (an hour away) because she would be alone and she feels very
under resourced in every way. So the main complaint is that she is having bloody, pussy, liquidy diarrhea 10 times
a day. The first treatment Liv + Ht. I broke the only 1 at 1st treatment rule because she was terrified and had been
losing a lot of blood. Diarrhea down to 3x the next day, appetite returned, calmer. 2 days later, treated PC because
she has a long history of insomnia and hadn’t been sleeping well. Next day some formed stool, slept through the
night, moving in the right direction. 2 days later, she is trying to decide what to do re how to get the support she
feels she needs. There is a provider in Nashville whom she has worked with over the years who takes people in and
cares for them over a month or so. Which is her preferred option but we are in Maine… I took it as responding well
to intense mothering made a note that more Ht would be good at some point. I did LU for her because she is trying
to figure out resources and she has the morphology of a ST excess type. Haven’t heard how that treatment sat or
even if she is still in the area. But my point is, in this case I had to completely ignore the fact that she was having
this bloody, pussy liquid diarrhea. 1st of all there is no way I could sort this out if I put all the pieces on the table,
it’s a mess. She is not a long term patient. I knew the stress of the situation was really aggravating things. So, I just
decided if I could get her nervous system to calm down, everything else would follow. I’m actually curious in your
situation if treating the ST would ultimately let her feel fed and nourished by what she does have and allow the LU
to open and receive the Qi of heaven.
Just a thought…