Jason: August 24, 2019, 5:33pm
Hi everybody! I’ve been experimenting with Sa’am for a few weeks here and there, but only a few days since
watching a replay of the full intro course.
I’m noticing a fairly high rate of adverse affects occurring 1-4 days after treatment (maybe 1 in 4), with no warning
signs on the table. My initial hypothesis is that it was due to using a gentle needle technique, so I’m working on
stepping that up.
Is there any other reason that a) adverse effects would be delayed, and b) the warning signs would fail to appear on
the table?
I really want to nip this in the bud so I can continue learning and practicing Saam! Thanks!
Jason: August 24, 2019, 5:43pm
One more question: would you still automatically apply the counterbalancing channel on the opposite side after a
week, regardless of presentation?
Jason: August 24, 2019, 9:33pm
I just watched a case study video in which Toby pretty much confirmed my guess that using thinner needles with
less stimulation can short circuit the clinical feedback. He also emphasized point location and attaining qi.
I haven’t had a chance to attend a live class with. How often does point location vary from Bensky in Saam?
michaelmax: August 25, 2019, 1:46am
Jason:
Is there any other reason that a) adverse effects would be delayed, and b) the warning signs would fail to
appear on the table?
Hi @Jason, this is a good question. I’ve not seen this myself. But you might be onto something with gentle
stimulation. But that is just a theory. I encourage you to ramp up your needle stimulation and see that is actually the
case and to report back to us.25/01/2024, 12:07Fail-safe mechanism not functioning? – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/fail-safe-mechanism-not-functioning/539/print2/8
Generally speaking warning signs will appear within the first few minutes. Or sometimes I’ll leave the room for 5
minutes and check in again to get a read on the patient and change things up if I need to.
michaelmax: August 25, 2019, 1:49am
Jason:
One more question: would you still automatically apply the counterbalancing channel on the opposite side after
a week, regardless of presentation?
I would not, by that point they are going to be in a different place. I’d go with that I’m seeing in front of me at that
juncture
Jason:
I haven’t had a chance to attend a live class with. How often does point location vary from Bensky in Saam?
I’d say for the most part they needle positions you know will be fine. That being said, GB41 gets needled all the
way through to GB42 when tonifying. And when sedating you go from GB42 to GB41.
Other than that, you’ll tend to go a bit deeper, and you really want to angle the needles so they are clearly “in” the
flow of the channel qi. Going with the channel tonify and against to sedate. This part is really important.
Taran: August 25, 2019, 2:33am
For what it’s worth – I recently had a patient (SJ++++ presentation) who had a super positive response on the table.
The room felt awesome. They dropped into a deep place, felt super relaxed and calm when they got up. The next
day they had a massive migraine (one of the things we were treating for), then they felt great until they saw me two
week later.
Their presentation was still SJ+++, so since they ended up feeling great, and the tx response had been positive we
did Li+ again. I used .40mm needles with strong stimulation both times. Again, on the table, super positive
response. Felt awesome after the tx, but this time not only did they have a migraine, they had vertigo. Then
continued to have HA all week and sleep poorly.
Clearly, it was not the right approach. However, it seemed like the right approach while the tx was happening. I’m
super puzzled. Hopefully, I will get the chance to treat them again. We have a good rapport, so it seems likely, but .
. .25/01/2024, 12:07Fail-safe mechanism not functioning? – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/fail-safe-mechanism-not-functioning/539/print3/8
Jason: August 25, 2019, 6:43pm
Thank you, Michael. I have a good sense of how to start remedying this problem. This is a unique challenge for me
with Sa’am. Although I’ve learned many different clinical styles and strategies, none ever really required me to
vary my needling technique much.
Jason: August 25, 2019, 6:46pm
Interesting! Sounds like there was a concurrent GB excess, I’m guessing (outward movement of wind?), but would
love to hear a more authoritative response.
michaelmax: August 25, 2019, 7:49pm
@Taran, can you tell us a bit more about what makes them TB++++
Also, when they are having the headaches what else is happening? Are they sleeping ok? Are they angry or
frustrated? Digestion? etc
Also in addition to your diagnosis of TB+++ what other channels are seeing that might need treatment?
Taran: August 25, 2019, 8:16pm
@michaelmax Hopefully, this will clarify.
TB++++ : Diamond eyes, rosy cheeks, super sensitive to temperature (and most other stimuli), incredible night
vision, hyper-aware of external environment, feels overwhelmed.
Breast cancer survivor, devoted Mom, works in a BUSY hospital as a Pharmacist.
Other options – PC+ (mainly for migraine pattern, some for chest tightness though that feels related to
reconstructive sx), SI+ (post-sx trauma and pain),
He+ for the level of fear around cancer recurrence would make sense if there wasn’t such a constant outpouring of
love and care for family and coworkers. Bl+ doesn’t seem like a good play though because of fear.
Thoughts?
Jason: August 25, 2019, 11:18pm
25/01/2024, 12:07Fail-safe mechanism not functioning? – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/fail-safe-mechanism-not-functioning/539/print4/8
michaelmax:
GB41 gets needled all the way through to GB42 when tonifying. And when sedating you go from GB42 to
GB41.
I’ve been attempting this on myself, and I can’t get past the tendon without significant nerve pain. Any pointers?
michaelmax: August 25, 2019, 11:34pm
Hey @Jason, you have to slide under the tendon. It’s totally doable once you get the knack
amyjenner: August 25, 2019, 11:53pm
Pull the pinky toe away from the other toes and the tendon will stand up. I slide it under that way
Jason: September 2, 2019, 3:38pm
Following up on this thread, I’ve increased my needle gauge and am stimulating more strongly now. That seems to
have solved the problem of not getting feedback in real time.
Question: If we supplement a channel, and then counterbalance it after seeing adverse affects, is the net effect
therapeutic, or did we just make and unmake a mistake?
I’m thinking of a patient from a couple of days ago. Dry skin, constipation with dry stools, excessive thirst,
entrepreneur with many projects in the air. I supplemented spleen. She went deep and looked happy. But after 20
minutes she happened to mention that she remembered to make a dentist appointment, because her dental crown
was on fire! So, I supplemented LI. The dental burning disappeared instantly. So… was she a covert spleen patient?
Or an LI patient with with occult dampness? What is the lesson?
Daniel: September 3, 2019, 4:17pm
I’d love to hear from more experienced Sa’Am practitioners on this but my early sense is that a good number of
our patients can be well located within one or two of the counterbalanced pair dynamics (when its two, I find its
often – well, I am a newbie so not sure what ‘often’ means!! . . . but two ‘neighbouring pairs’ seem to be in play a
fair bit – like for example – Spleen/Large Intestine AND Lung/Stomach . . . . or . . . . Liver/Sanjiao AND
Pericardium/GallBladder) but often they themselves have ‘imbalance’ that positions itself symptomatically on25/01/2024, 12:07Fail-safe mechanism not functioning? – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/fail-safe-mechanism-not-functioning/539/print5/8
several simultaneous points along the pair spectrum and not just on one point on that spectrum – so probably over a
number of treatments, that ‘toggling strategy’ we hear of is what is called for – to get the dynamic of the channel
pair working more dynamically.
KristinWisgirda: September 3, 2019, 9:03pm
Unless some radical event happens in the mean time, I would treat the counterbalancer the next week since the
adverse reaction is a clear indication that the system needs it. Again and again, Toby repeats that after an adverse
reaction you must treat the counterbalancer.
A week later, you can use the regular parameters for choosing the side of treatment.
Jason:
Is there any other reason that a) adverse effects would be delayed, and b) the warning signs would fail to
appear on the table?
Learning to read patient response on the table takes lots and lots of attentive practice. If you are new to Saam, I
have to suspect that this is an issue. You are obviously using enough stimulation to have some effect so the lighter
stimulation is probably less of an issue than the need to closely watch patients during treatment.
KristinWisgirda: September 3, 2019, 9:07pm
This happened to me personally where supplementing Spleen once was divine, but a second time it felt good but
also caused aching in my gums.
I also benefit from LI+ treatments too.
Clinic is hard! And fun!
2 Likes25/01/2024, 12:07Fail-safe mechanism not functioning? – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/fail-safe-mechanism-not-functioning/539/print6/8
Jason: September 4, 2019, 8:22pm
You are obviously using enough stimulation to have some effect so the lighter stimulation is probably less of an
issue than the need to closely watch patients during treatment.
Thanks for responding. It might be worth getting clarification on this from @Tobydaly1. My impression is that the
lighter stimulation causes a slower response, but not necessarily a weaker one. If that’s true, the importance of
technique needs to be highlighted for newbs like me. We can’t really Sa’am responsibly without clinical feedback.
I learned the hard way.
KristinWisgirda: September 4, 2019, 9:04pm
Jason:
watching a replay of the full intro course.
Awesome! There is so much in the intro course. It would be worth it to watch a third time to let all of the messages
sink in even more deeply. Even with best efforts, it takes a while to integrate all of the pieces into your patient care
and lots of double checking to be sure you are doing every aspect of treatment correctly.
Jason:
Following up on this thread, I’ve increased my needle gauge and am stimulating more strongly now.
This is so important. You will get much clearer feedback and won’t have to worry if that aspect of the treatment
equation is/isn’t working.
Lighter stimulation produces a weaker response thus a slower response.
Daniel: September 5, 2019, 11:42pm
Where is there a FULL REPLAY of the intro course? I have only been able – after each live streamed class I have
attended – to find one two hour case segment – not the full class?
KristinWisgirda #21September 5, 2019, 11:57pm25/01/2024, 12:07Fail-safe mechanism not functioning? – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/fail-safe-mechanism-not-functioning/539/print7/8
This is a question for Michael who will be away until next week I believe.
Sorry I can’t help.
Jason: September 6, 2019, 12:06am
Hi Daniel,
There is a drop-down menu of 7 or 8 videos from the 2 days. In my browser, the tab is a downward arrow at top
right.
Daniel: September 6, 2019, 12:38am
Hmmmm – wow – I have been unable to watch anything and I still don’t see any downward arrow at the top right.
My browser is Chrome. Are you under Qiological Learning?
Jason: September 6, 2019, 1:20am
Click ‘more’
Daniel: September 6, 2019, 1:44am
25/01/2024, 12:07Fail-safe mechanism not functioning? – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/fail-safe-mechanism-not-functioning/539/print8/8
OMG – thank you!! I had no idea
@michaelmax – hey – please don’t take down / disable the New York weekend – can we get a month extension – I
only JUST learned how to access it all and now I need a few weeks to watch it all.
Thank you Jason
michaelmax: September 6, 2019, 9:33pm
Oh man, I wonder who else has had issues with this and did not reach out to me. Something to add to the check list
for next time.
Actually… next time i think I’ll be using zoom instead as it allows for a more real time experience.
I’ll leave it up till the end of Sept… how’s that sound?
Daniel: September 6, 2019, 10:35pm
I’d REALLY appreciate that a LOT Michael (end of Sept) – I;ll need a few weeks now to watch it again.
Joanne_Tait: September 8, 2019, 5:40pm
Yay! That’s awesome. Thanks so much. It’s been fun to rewatch and funny how many little nuances are missed on
the first (or second) go around. Much appreciated to have the extra time. Thanks, @Daniel !