KristinWisgirda: November 16, 2020, 4:02pm
As a group we really didn’t come up with anything for @George_Mandler’s morning sickness case yesterday. Not
a satisfying discussion. The only option we mentioned that he hadn’t tried was Liv+ which wasn’t a clear winner
given her mixed SJ/Liv excess presentation. We missed an opportunity to have a more nuanced discussion of this
patient and topic. (We might not have been at our sharpest and brightest that late in the discussion).
We never talked about the state of her fluids which is such a critical issue with patient’s who have been vomiting
for some time. Even if her overall presentation isn’t LI excess, perhaps there are signs of inner/outer fluid dryness
that could warrant SP+. I’m remembering one of Sharon W’s cases where she used xiao jian zhong tang to bring in
juicy fluids for severe hyperemesis in a malnourished woman. I also wonder if ST+ used excessively could actually
aggravate internal dryness. That seems like a big factor to watch out for.
Of course, vomiting can be caused by cold damp in the stomach too.
I haven’t seen any hyperemesis since starting Saam and have only used ST+, P+ and Liv+ for milder cases of
morning sickness. What are other people’s experiences?
George_Mandler: November 16, 2020, 5:58pm
Thank you Kristin. I feel like talking through it was helpful and not sure when I’ll actually see this patient again. I
did email her immediately after class, but like her guarded personality she is slow and brief in response.
Without everyone having all the details it is difficult to parse out these cases where a patient is a little bit of both
sides of a pair.
KristinWisgirda:
We might not have been at our sharpest and brightest that late in the discussion
I was a flickering 30 watt bulb.
KristinWisgirda:
We never talked about the state of her fluids which is such a critical issue with patient’s who have been
vomiting for some time
Yes her fluids definitely took a hit it was visible in her tongue and thin , 80bpm pulse. She was super thirsty and
couldn’t drink. That is why I considered BL+ supplementation. (more on this below***).
She rarely feels cold even in winter but not overly hot.
KristinWisgirda:10/01/2024, 13:41Disappointed with morning sickness options – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/disappointed-with-morning-sickness-options/1400/print2/3
perhaps there are signs of inner/outer fluid dryness that could warrant SP+.
She also has a significant sweet tooth and her tongue is scalloped but I felt she needed moisture. The only dryness
of her skin is on her lateral heels bilateral around BL60/62 area. Her tissue was kind of dense too.
KristinWisgirda:
wonder if ST+ used excessively could actually aggravate internal dryness
In theory it would seem yes?. But I haven’t seen enough where ST+ leads to internal dryness – how would we
measure that? Is the tongue on the outside or inside? I had a Vet on several meds with super dry mouth – I did ST+
on him and he said “Whoa I just got saliva in my mouth” and it helped his dry mouth for several days. Next time it
didn’t work. So perhaps as you say we need to be cautious with some people using ST+ too much. With that said I
have a few patients where ST+ is almost always helpful and have trouble parsing out why they always need it as
they don’t have the banker presentation.
This is a good question for Toby if he has seen that and what to look for as so many of the signs (thirst, tongue,
saliva) can be inside or outside.
KristinWisgirda:
Of course, vomiting can be caused by cold damp in the stomach too.
Definitely, but didn’t seem like it fit her no cold signs at all.
***In the chat yesterday someone wrote “I have in my notes to be cautious with UB+ in pregnancy”. I have not
heard that. I have heard to be cautious with LI+ in pregnancy as you do not want to dry her out.
If it is true to be cautious with UB+ in pregnancy I must ask why – I have had many overheated pregnant mama’s
and have used it with good results at least 1x.
Thank you Kirstin for continuing the dialog and welcome back.
cassiopeia: November 16, 2020, 7:42pm
sorry I missed the discussion yesterday but I appreciate having this recap on the forum.
George_Mandler:
If it is true to be cautious with UB+ in pregnancy I must ask why – I have had many overheated pregnant
mama’s and have used it with good results at least 1x.
in the intro class in July, Toby specifically said to be very cautious with LI+ and UB+ in pg because babies like wet
and warmth. I didn’t hear him say they’re contraindicated, but what I got is I would need VERY strong clears signs
to use those two treatments.10/01/2024, 13:41Disappointed with morning sickness options – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/disappointed-with-morning-sickness-options/1400/print3/3
George_Mandler: November 17, 2020, 4:41am
cassiopeia:
Toby specifically said to be very cautious with LI+ and UB+ in pg because babies like wet and warmth
Thank Fang, I missed that memo on UB+. And I am not so sure how much that fully resonates with me as a rule
which is probably why I missed it. I can think of several mothers to be that would’ve loved to jump in a cold lake.
Jeffrey: November 17, 2020, 3:27pm
all interesting ideas folks, and yet sometimes it’s difficult to get the correct size hammer for the appropriate nail. I
use Sa’am 90% of the time, and yet sometimes another system has a clearer path to a successful result. ( that said, i
often find myself looking for a sa’am treatment when i know a clear way through w another system. I suppose
that’s trying to learn) This may fit in my 10% catagory.
Master Tung’s P6,Sp4 can have a good effect. I think the nutrition/ food suggestion is paramount.
Toby mention Dr. Wu’s silken chicken was a benefit ( protein with astringent quality ). I have always heard beef
was a preferred choice, but whatever works is valid. Young Wei Jia, Miriam Lee and Susan Johnson recommend
even a bite or two of a burger can be extremely helpful. This is useful as It’s not uncommon for these women to
have repulsions to different foods, so having benefit with a small amount is useful. Both options sound useful to
me, one has the more astringent quality and the other has the stronger intrinsically warmer nature. As CMed has no
single root, it’s pluralistic reality gives us different options from different time periods, regions and doctors to use
our analytical thinking to make the best decision in each case. Dr Ng from SF, made this distinction; when we think
a patient needs protein, we should consider the patient and their nature. If in fact they are nervous and or have any
type of tremor or convulsion etc., you should not use chicken as those are qualities of chicken. Where the person is
more damp, chicken is preferred. if the patient is more blood deficient, then beef is preferred. To whatever degree, I
presume this is from the “laws of similar’s”
just some more grist for the mill.