Adina_Kletzel: September 18, 2019, 10:05am
I still find myself confused with damp and dry.
70 year old woman. Not thin, not heavy. Average with a round post menopause middle.
pretty and put together +6
soft skin, small dull reddish eyes. +8
phlegm drip in back of throat that requires her to clear her throat often.
Gets bronchitis at least once a year.
drippy right nostril
soft stool
insomnia for many years. hard to fall asleep and wakes up many times with difficulty falling back to sleep because
of racing thoughts.
wiry surface right guan pulse
Always busy, never bored +8
works full time and travels.
Always wants to get things done +8
I would do tonify LI to try and dry up some of the damp but can I with such a LI constitution?
Jeffrey: September 18, 2019, 11:30am
@Adina_Kletzel Curious when morphology doesn’t match personality.
Adina_Kletzel:
soft skin,
Is she really dry in the exterior? Is her soft skin a sign of moisture or dryness?
How do her thenars look? Resources?
quote=“Adina_Kletzel, post:1, topic:617”]
pretty and put together +6
[/quote]
Quality of medial heel?
Adina_Kletzel:
dull reddish eyes. +8
Night vision, likes dislikes light?17/01/2024, 11:47Damp on LI character type – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/damp-on-li-character-type/617/print2/5
Just a few more observations I may consider when finding myself backed into a corner like this. It will be
interesting to hear what others add and how you proceed.
George_Mandler #3September 18, 2019, 12:15pm
From what you said I do not see many damp/damp so I would not be thinking LI+ in this case. I have had post
nasal drip and phlegm clear up with both ST+ and LU+ treatments. Is post nasal drip on inside or outside? – I think
it can be either.
Is her skin dry? If so I’d be thinking ST+ to start with her as it sounds like she has resources and softer stool.
Daniel: September 18, 2019, 12:28pm
This is totally from a chinese medicine context outside of Sa’Am (but not TCM either – in my case palpation based
approaches and styles) – I have found repeatedly over the years that very often – much more often than not, a key
player in upper body congestion – nose, sinus, head, throat – is the wood system – Liver or Gall Bladder of Jue Yin –
Liver and PC . . . so perhaps see if you can find Sa’Am evidence of excess or deficiency in those domains? Perhaps
her busy-ness and industriousness is more a Gall Bladder expression in the world than a Large Intestine one???
Perhaps she needs the ‘calming’, inward directing of PC or Liver?
KristinWisgirda: September 18, 2019, 2:41pm
Adina_Kletzel:
I still find myself confused with damp and dry.
Me too. Clinic is … hard!
If her chief complaint is the phlegm and drip, then you have to address that.
I would be sure to ask about how much moisturizer she uses. Most 70 year old ladies I know are pretty heavy
lotion users.
Adina_Kletzel:
I would do tonify LI to try and dry up some of the damp but can I with such a LI constitution?
It is pretty common that morphology/symptom quality doesn’t match personality/behaviors.
Adina_Kletzel:
a round post menopause middle.17/01/2024, 11:47Damp on LI character type – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/damp-on-li-character-type/617/print3/5
This is clear damp inside, but I like to palpate the muscles underneath too as sometimes they can tight and dry. All
the layers can be considered in evaluating damp and dry. Definitely note fog under the skin if present.
Adina_Kletzel: September 18, 2019, 7:01pm
KristinWisgirda:
It is pretty common that morphology/symptom quality doesn’t match personality/behaviors.
So this is fine – if I would determine that she needs LI+ then it is okay that her character is already LI type? I won’t
be exacerbating her LI character by tonifying LI for damp issues?
On the same note, can I do Liv+ for someone who is blood deficient but has very dull eyes?
Often signs and symptoms dont come in a nice and comfortable package and I want to know when I can push some
signs aside in favor of others – even when they contradict following the Saam archetypes.
Adina_Kletzel: September 18, 2019, 7:06pm
I was considering GB involvement but she is not at all aggressive and she often has a hard time expressing herself,
she can sometimes be meek from lack of self-confidence. At the same time she does not do well with stress and
pressure and it is the worried thoughts that keep her up at night.
Have you successfully worked with Saam for upper body congestion? Are you saying that you have found that you
dont approach upper body congestion from a damp/dry perspective?
Daniel: September 18, 2019, 10:29pm
Hi Adina. I am pretty new to Sa’Am to be clear. But a veteran of 20 years of practice. My comments were based on
that. But certainly, what you describe might well, I imagine potentially fit in the Jue Yin excess category (Liver or
Pericardium) and even Gall Bladder deficiency. So it may well be that a Gall Bladder supplementation may be the
key to her expelling the congestion. I have a case right now – she came in for right shoulder pain – I won’t go into
the details, but my treatments actually flared up an old asthma and it seemed nothing I did helped the asthma . . . so
I really reevaluated the whole case . . . and concluded that I needed to try Gall Bladder supplementation . . . . and
bingo! Her asthma resolved!
KristinWisgirda: September 19, 2019, 12:07am
Daniel:17/01/2024, 11:47Damp on LI character type – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/damp-on-li-character-type/617/print4/5
concluded that I needed to try Gall Bladder supplementation . . . . and bingo! Her asthma resolved!
Awesome! There must have been some clear P excess signs for you to try GB+.
A great reason to evaluate all the channels for every new patient as my case study format suggests.
Still, treatments based on fluid dynamics should be strongly considered as they are helpful a good deal of the time.
Daniel: September 20, 2019, 12:57am
Overall – she is definitely in the ‘Librarian’ domain. She is a violinist in the symphony. She’s certainly likely to use
reason to back up arguments. I asked her a lot about that – vis a vis her husband and controversial decisions they
had to make as a couple. Her painful shoulder is very forward ,making the area inside her shoulder very concave –
and as she puts it, pulling even more in that direction (of course, in the two sides of coin theme – this makes her
upper back behind her should concave). I was nervous to supplement Gall Bladder – I didn’t want her to fly into a
rage at someone after the treatment. So I asked her if she had any serious frustrations with anyone and she was
quick to tell me about coworkers in the symphony who have made serious management decisions she profoundly
disagreed with and its been no end of frustration for her – and she works right alongside these people every day. So
I warned her about the GB+ treatment and that it may bring out her desire to punch those people and that perhaps
she might want to get a punching bag at home or find a way to vent. Anyway – turns out it was not only fine – but
she reported the following week that she was remarkably at ease sitting beside these people all week at work. (and
her asthma resolved quite a bit).
Adina_Kletzel: September 23, 2019, 8:05am
KristinWisgirda:
It is pretty common that morphology/symptom quality doesn’t match personality/behaviors.
Hi, I am just reposting my questions from above because I would really love to get some clarification on this issue.
If I would determine that she needs LI+ then it is okay even though her character is already LI type? I won’t be
exacerbating her LI character by tonifying LI for damp issues?
On the same note, can I do Liv+ for someone who is blood deficient but has very dull eyes?
What about someone who has frequent urination and sweating and so KID+ may help but they are very beautiful
and symmetrical?
Often signs and symptoms dont come in a nice and comfortable package and I want to know when I can push some
signs aside in favor of others – even when they contradict following the Saam archetypes.
Thank-you so so much!!17/01/2024, 11:47Damp on LI character type – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/damp-on-li-character-type/617/print5/5
KristinWisgirda: September 23, 2019, 3:08pm
Adina_Kletzel:
Often signs and symptoms dont come in a nice and comfortable package and I want to know when I can push
some signs aside in favor of others – even when they contradict following the Saam archetypes.
Clinic is hard. Be guided by the grossest aspect of the patient’s patient presentation, the patient’s chief complaints,
sometimes channel/sometimes quality and then pay close attention to the patient’s response to treatment on the
table.
ngmatthews: October 4, 2021, 5:15pm
I think you could try supplementing LI or St in a LI dominant type to dry dampness. I would think of an excess of
dampness as being perhaps a more recent development and of a more short term nature. We don’t talk about
chronic vs acute very much in the Saam discussion but I think it is important and I wonder what Toby would say
about it.