BridgesAOM: July 16, 2019, 4:22pm
Hi everyone!
I actually have two patients with puzzling reactions involving LR tonifying treatments. Since these are kind of long
and are different cases, I’ll separate them into two different threads.
The first one is on the table right now, so I’ll start with her. This is a generally depleted patient who had swine flu
in 2009 and has been struggling with aches and pains and chronic fatigue ever since. She has had difficulty falling
asleep and staying asleep ever since the birth of her second daughter 15 years ago. She has self-diagnosed leaky
gut, with a lot of food sensitivities and IBS. Her eyes are fairly dull yet protuberant and they tend to get dry. She
talks a lot, often without thinking that others have somewhere to be (although she is aware that she talks a lot).
Before I started treating her with Sa’am, she had a lot of interior heat and loved it when I did LI 11, which I did for
several treatments until the heat vented and she felt she didn’t need it anymore.
With Sa’am, I’ve diagnosed her as SJ excess, which I know doesn’t correlate with dull eyes and unawareness of
others’ time, and in fact I almost tonified her SJ, but then she happened to mention the dry eyes for the first time
and how she went to the conservatory recently and felt “completely decompressed” after visiting the cool, moist
rainforest room (almost in the same breath). So I tonified LR and she felt great; her eyes started moistening
immediately.
She came back, having had a fantastic week, although her eyes were getting dry again. I tonified LR, and she did
great.
Next time she came in, still felt great, although was complaining of congestion and having felt run down by the
recent humidity we’ve been having. In order to change things up, I tonified LI to bring some dryness to her body. It
worked immediately and, apparently, a little too well. Her sinuses drained, and she had to urinate toward the end of
the treatment.
Today she came in and said that the day following that treatment, she was “parched” and strongly craved
watermelon (of which she proceeded to eat a lot). She also mentioned insomnia again last night and fatigue. She
also reported dry dermatitis around her nostrils and LI 20 area and behind her ears (which she apparently also gets
when she drinks milk products). So I decided to go back to LR tonifying. By the time I was putting in the third
needle, she started sweating and getting hot, and she said that it didn’t feel like her body was liking the treatment. I
took the needles out and, after some deliberation (because I wouldn’t think to bring in the bright warmth of SJ
when she’s hot and sweating), I went ahead and started inserting the needles for tonifying SJ to counterbalance
whatever LR did. After SJ 2 and 3, she started to feel better, and I went to her foot to do GB 41 and she asked that I
don’t do that point if at all possible (I had forgotten in the moment that she has medical-related trauma with people
touching her feet – I’ve gotten away with Sa’am treatments so far because the only foot point between LR and LI is
LR 4, and that’s close enough to the ankle that she tolerates it). After making sure that she was feeling better and
the sweating had stopped, I just left the two SJ points in for the rest of the treatment and did not do GB 41 or BL
66. I also turned on a fan for her because our building currently doesn’t have a/c and it is hot and humid today.
So my questions for this case are:26/01/2024, 11:50Can’t figure out this LR reaction – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/cant-figure-out-this-lr-reaction/374/print2/5
1. What on earth did tonifying LR do to cause this heat/sweating reaction after she’d been doing so well with it
before?
2. Regarding the dryness around her nose and behind her ears: I’m confused about what’s going on with the
moisture, here, since it happens both when she’s dehydrated and when she consumes excessively damp
foods. Any insights on this?
Thanks everyone!
KristinWisgirda: July 16, 2019, 5:45pm
BridgesAOM:
She also reported dry dermatitis around her nostrils and LI 20 area and behind her ears (which she apparently
also gets when she drinks milk products). So I decided to go back to LR tonifying.
Dry skin is not an indication for SJ excess. In St Louis, Toby clarified that supplementing Liver is only very
slightly moistening. Heat in the upper is an indication for SJ excess- so flushing, rashes, acne can be an indication
to Liver+.
BridgesAOM:
I tonified LR and she felt great; her eyes started moistening immediately.
She came back, having had a fantastic week, although her eyes were getting dry again. I tonified LR, and she
did great.
I am wondering if she had any heat signs in her eye area- redness, burning, etc. Also, I wonder how light sensitive
she is- is she more comfortable in dimmer light, does she need to wear sunglasses? Supplementing Liver is
cooling, so I wonder if the moisture she got out of Liver+ really came from reducing the heat. Liver+ is the
hallmark treatment for light sensitivity.
If you would like more help on this case and ideas about how to answer your questions, we really need a better
picture of her. It seems overheating is a recurring theme for this patient. How hot is she? Is she still a serious
talker? How agitated is she?
With her dry symptoms, getting a picture of her morphology would be helpful- thin or more hefty. Overall dry skin
or moist skin with dry patches, easy sweating?
If you have taken a Saam class, go through your notes about each of the channels and see where your patients
symptoms line up. If you haven’t taken a Saam class, it would help you understand the system better.
BridgesAOM: July 18, 2019, 2:41pm
26/01/2024, 11:50Can’t figure out this LR reaction – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/cant-figure-out-this-lr-reaction/374/print3/5
Dry skin is not an indication for SJ excess. In St Louis, Toby clarified that supplementing Liver is only very
slightly moistening. Heat in the upper is an indication for SJ excess- so flushing, rashes, acne can be an
indication to Liver+.
Sorry, didn’t mean to imply that’s why I went back to LR. I went back to LR since she had done so well with it
before, and I figured the slightly moistening aspect was a side positive thing.
I am wondering if she had any heat signs in her eye area- redness, burning, etc. Also, I wonder how light
sensitive she is- is she more comfortable in dimmer light, does she need to wear sunglasses? Supplementing
Liver is cooling, so I wonder if the moisture she got out of Liver+ really came from reducing the heat. Liver+
is the hallmark treatment for light sensitivity.
She did report some mild sensations of heat, and she does often carry sunglasses with her, although she’s never
reported any particular sensitivity to light. That does make a lot of sense, though, that the moistening of the eyes
would come from cooling rather than actual moistening.
If you would like more help on this case and ideas about how to answer your questions, we really need a better
picture of her. It seems overheating is a recurring theme for this patient. How hot is she? Is she still a serious
talker? How agitated is she?
With her dry symptoms, getting a picture of her morphology would be helpful- thin or more hefty. Overall dry
skin or moist skin with dry patches, easy sweating?
I’ll answer these questions because it would be interesting and good for me to pull everything together, but she
actually ended up cancelling today’s treatment because she’s feeling so good, so this is not one of my most
challenging cases (I’m going to try to post my other LR one today). I was at the St. Louis class, so I have been
pouring over my notes for this case; what puzzled me the most was the heat reaction she got from tonifying LR.
It is of note that I accidentally put LU 8 in the wrong direction initially, but then I noticed and removed it and put it
in the correct direction. Then I continued with the other needles and she started sweating. So maybe that had
something to do with it?
She used to feel hot subjectively (although I never noticed her feeling particularly hot to the touch), but several
sessions with LI 11 resolved that significantly. Now she only occasionally complains of mild heat. I’m not sure
what you mean by “serious” talker – she talks a lot, often finding tangents to run off on with lots of details in her
stories. It’s of clinical note on the rare occasion she’s not especially chatty. Her level of agitation seems mixed to
me: she is easily agitated by circumstances, but also brushes it off fairly quickly as temporary, and her energy is not
aggressive or angry even when she’s complaining about something. She’ll eventually sigh, lay down, and go, “oh
well…” and let me put the needles in.
Her body type is more hefty, overall moist skin, seems to easily sweat (although she’s never complained about it,
she’s mentioned it a lot).
Thanks for your response!26/01/2024, 11:50Can’t figure out this LR reaction – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/cant-figure-out-this-lr-reaction/374/print4/5
KristinWisgirda: July 18, 2019, 3:57pm
BridgesAOM:
she talks a lot , often finding tangents to run off on with lots of details in her stories. It’s of clinical note on the
rare occasion she’s not especially chatty.
This amount of talking gives strong weight to a Heart excess pattern. That’s what I meant by a serious talker. It
sounds like a much stronger part of her presentation than problem with the SJ/Liver systems. The cool moist
rainforest room might have been decompressing to her because it was cool and moist. Her watermelon craving was
her body craving the ice water of UB +. Liver+ was good for one treatment but obviously wasn’t right for the
second try.
BridgesAOM:
Her body type is more hefty, overall moist skin, seems to easily sweat (although she’s never complained about
it, she’s mentioned it a lot).
Morphology sounds like Spleen excess. It is good information that LI+ was too drying for her at the time.
BridgesAOM:
, she had a lot of interior heat and loved it when I did LI 11,
Does this mean that you were just needling LI11 or LI11 as part of a LI+ treatment?
BridgesAOM: July 18, 2019, 4:43pm
KristinWisgirda:
This amount of talking gives strong weight to a Heart excess pattern. That’s what I meant by a serious talker. It
sounds like a much stronger part of her presentation than problem with the SJ/Liver systems. The cool moist
rainforest room might have been decompressing to her because it was cool and moist. Her watermelon craving
was her body craving the ice water of UB +. Liver+ was good for one treatment but obviously wasn’t right for
the second try.
Ohhhhhh that makes a lot of sense! I was focusing on her lack of perception with other people’s time (and interest,
haha) as a LR excess, but I see what you mean with the HT excess. That’s super helpful!
KristinWisgirda:26/01/2024, 11:50Can’t figure out this LR reaction – Sa’am Clinical Questions – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/cant-figure-out-this-lr-reaction/374/print5/5
Does this mean that you were just needling LI11 or LI11 as part of a LI+ treatment?
I was just needling LI 11 (and other points) – these treatments were before I really started to seriously try Sa’am
like this.
Thanks so much again! I’m going to consider UB+ next time she comes in.