Adina_Kletzel: July 9, 2020, 10:20am
HI,
I could use some guidance with the following case.
54 year old woman, a little over weight, large eyes, and a bit of a flushed face (although could be just cuz of the
mask…)
Went through treatment for breast cancer 5 years ago. After that found mestases in head. Was fine for a year and a
half and now found more mestases in head.
She is going through chemo now and has come to acupuncture to help with 2 main issues: blurry and double
vision, burning in the bladder and having to run to pee upon feeling the urge, diarrhea from the chemo.
HT bladder burns 8+ hot diarrhea 8+ hot reflux 8+
Liv feel sadness 7+
Bl when have to pee have to run to the bathroom 8+ tends to feel colder 5+ burning bladder feels better when put
hot water bottle on it 6+
LU bloating in stomach 7+
St diarrhea and dry mouth 7+(both from chemo)
SJ large eyes 6+ left RST 6+
GB poor sleep 7+(better with cannabis)
These are the symptoms that I dont know where to categorize:
Mestases in brain and spinal cord
Tendency toward sadness
Double vision and blurry vision (from brain tumors)
Balance issues (also from tumors)
I have to admit that I have some anxiety with using Saam with her because she is already suffering so much and is
going through chemo so I dont want to make a mistake and cause her more discomfort but then again I would love
to really bring her some relief…
It seems that she has an imbalance on the HT/Bl axis with various hot/cold issues.
I think that in order to really see what the grossest thing in the room is I really need to understand how to
categorize some of her main symptoms listed above that I am unsure about.
Then I can see where to take it from there and would love to hear others opinions as well.
THanks so much!
Heat signs, internal or external
Adina_Kletzel: July 16, 2020, 9:25am
Can someone try and give a crack at this so we can try and work through it together?
I know its complicated but if we try we can probably gain a bit of an understanding of the direction that may be12/01/2024, 12:12Brain tumors and UTI – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/brain-tumors-and-uti/1137/print2/7
helpful to her.
Thanks!!
KristinWisgirda: July 16, 2020, 12:18pm
Hi Adina,
I wrote the following response days ago but failed to hit the Reply button. Sorry for the delay.
This poor woman has lots going on.
Adina_Kletzel:
It seems that she has an imbalance on the HT/Bl axis with various hot/cold issues.
For her hot symptoms, how do you know that they are hot. I say this because burning sensations can be a red
herring. For instance burning sensations around the anus can happen with any kind of diarrhea because frequent
stool and wiping is just irritating to the tissues. So with stool/urine you can ask if those feel unusually warm to
pass? Do they have strong smells? Is the urine concentrated? These are more reliable signs of heat.
If you see a mix of hot/cold, it is helpful to look closely at SI/K. I don’t see any information about her symmetry,
signs of blood stasis, etc.
Adina_Kletzel:
SJ large eyes 6+
I’ve never heard Toby talk about the size of the eyes for any channel.
Adina_Kletzel:
Liv feel sadness 7+
To say liver excess you want to be sure that her thoughts are dark and that she is having a hard time seeing the
light. Sadness can be other things too. Lung excess that isn’t able to let go. St excess that never has enough.
It would be helpful to know more about the diarrhea. How many times a day, cramping/no cramping, strong smell,
undigested food, etc. What makes it 8+? With diarrhea you want to consider LI+ or SP+ as treatments depending
on body type. Looks like she is more of a candidate for LI+.
I’m not sure what left RST is.
[quote=“Adina_Kletzel, post:1, topic:1137”]
These are the symptoms that I dont know where to categorize:
To analyze a symptom look at the channel and quality. With the mets to the brain/spine, all we can say for sure is
that the channels of the brain/spine are affected: UB, Du, K. We can’t say anything for sure about quality for those.12/01/2024, 12:12Brain tumors and UTI – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/brain-tumors-and-uti/1137/print3/7
Double/blurred vision we can’t say much for sure about either unless something clearly makes them better or
worse. If she sees too much light or her vision is dark, you would look to the SJ/Liver. You have to look to the rest
of her system to tell you why she could have vision problems.
Balance issues just tells you that she has balance issues. I look at this as (potentially) a lack of steadiness (aka
consolidation) and ability to hold oneself upright so would look to SI excess and P excess. It could also be if she is
really ungrounded (GB excess) or unaware of her surroundings (Liver excess). You have to ask what qualities
makes sense given her whole presentation.
Adina_Kletzel:
I think that in order to really see what the grossest thing in the room is I really need to understand how to
categorize some of her main symptoms listed above that I am unsure about.
The grossest thing in the room is what really stands out to you about a patient. While the grossest thing in the room
can be a symptom, more often it is a quality. The patient is sooo damp, or soo hot or soooo falling apart. If it is a
symptom, it could be that she has diarrhea 12x/day and it is controlling her life. Or she can hardly make it across
the room because her balance is sooo bad.
I hope this helps. Sorry again for the delayed response.
Adina_Kletzel: July 23, 2020, 9:51am
HI,
Thank-you so much for your detailed response.
I will send an update for this case in a week.
However, I am stuck on the SI/kid axis right now.
My first question is: Are tumors uniformly considered consolidated masses and are therefore automatically kid
excess?
Second: if the medial heel is thin and dry BUT also filled with varicose veins – is that still considered SI excess?
The two signs kind of contradict themselves.
Or… does it just mean that the person (my patient) is both SI and KId excess?
And if a cancer patient is both SI and Kid excess then is there a safer one to start with? SI or Kid?
Kid She is put together 7+ symmetrical 6+ has thick varicose veins on her left leg and medial heels 8+ tumors(?)
9+
SI thin dry medial heels 7+ very poor balance 8+
It looks like kid excess tips the scale but I wanted to check in because of the sensitivity of the case.
Thanks!
KristinWisgirda #5July 23, 2020, 1:19pm12/01/2024, 12:12Brain tumors and UTI – Qiological Community
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Adina_Kletzel:
Are tumors uniformly considered consolidated masses and are therefore automatically kid excess?
No.
The Intro Powerpoint says: When the Kidney is in excess … tends to exhibit hard masses in the lower abdomen.
Given the low tech nature of our tradition, the strongest evidence of K excess is when there are palpable hard
masses in the lower abdomen.
The further you get away from each word of that description, the less weight you have for K excess. Yes, masses
could be considered an excess consolidation but you don’t have palpable or hard or in the lower abdomen. I would
consider some possible Kidney involvement based on the location in the brain, as some traditions say that the
Kidney channel goes to the brain. Other channels go there too.
Adina_Kletzel:
if the medial heel is thin and dry BUT also filled with varicose veins – is that still considered SI excess?
The two signs kind of contradict themselves.
Or… does it just mean that the person (my patient) is both SI and KId excess?
The heel sounds like mixed K and SI excesses.
If the poor balance has an element of dizziness you could also consider K excess.
Adina_Kletzel:
And if a cancer patient is both SI and Kid excess then is there a safer one to start with? SI or Kid?
When you find 2 counterbalancers neck and neck, it is safer to start elsewhere.
Best wishes to your patient.
Adina_Kletzel: August 25, 2020, 7:54am
Update on this Case
These are the treatments I did and her reactions
Ht + Said felt extremely relaxed during treatment. Bladder issues better. Only feel urgency at night
Liv + had to pee at end of treatment even before I took the needles out. 2nd night after treatment bladder was
burning and put on hot water and felt better. Still running to bathroom.
I thought liv+ could help because she has bright eyes, is polite, is going through so much and could use a shield,
had breast cancer on her left side and has varicose veins only on her left side, and knee pain only on left but I think
it was too cool for the bladder issues – which do better with heat.12/01/2024, 12:12Brain tumors and UTI – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/brain-tumors-and-uti/1137/print5/7
SI +, CV 3, CV 12 Said she fell asleep during treatment. Bladder worse – leaking out during day if don’t run to
bathroom fast enough, bladder burned second night after treatment. Hot water bottle helped.
Kid + ® Told me afterwards that had stomach pains on lower right of abdomen during treatment that went away
when I took the needles out.
Clearly Ht+ helped the most. I wanted to do it again but she said that she is feeling warmer than in the past (when
she had been feeling colder) and her tongue is quite red and her cheeks are red as well.
I was surprised by the lower abdomen pain during Kid + because she is leaking urine and stool so it seemed that
she really needed some consolidation. Also – SI+ seemed to cause even more leakage.I still dont know how she felt
with it because she come again on Thursday.
All this has to be taken with the back drop that she is going through chemo and is on a whole lot of medications.
Would you suggest attempting Ht+ again since it helped so much with the Bladder issues even though she no
longer feels cold and it is 105 degrees outside here?
I was thinking of doing liv + and ht + but I thought that 2 channels at once may be too much for someone going
through chemo. But I will say that she does not look emaciated and very ill. She does have a fuller, stronger build.
KristinWisgirda: August 25, 2020, 2:18pm
Hi Adina,
Thanks for the update. I am assuming that you are listing the treatments in the order that you did them. I really am
curious about how the rest of her system as been doing since it sounds like she had some other significant
symptoms like hot diarrhea, reflux, bloating and the double vision/blurry vision. Do you know the net effect of K+,
beyond the temporary abdominal pain? Here is what I see based on your report.
Given the positive response to H+, the hot environment and her increasing heat signs, I would consider doing H+
and Liver + together. But I strongly hesitate given that Liver+ was aggravating to her urination, especially if Liver+
came after H+. Even though H+ heated her up, her bladder still didn’t like the cooling of Liver. Hmmm.
Her response to Liver+ sounds for sure negative and makes me consider counterbalancing with SJ+, which isn’t as
hot as H+. The left sided issues can be a sign that there is a problem with the SJ/Liver pair, not just that Liver+ is
needed. How bright and outward oriented is she overall? How polite is she really? Somewhere on this forum, I
wrote about one of my very nice, polite patients with left sided low back pain. Liver+ was totally wrong for her and
gave her terrible headaches. (The bread in Iceland case.) Thank goodness SJ+ saved the day for her back and
headaches.
Given the red face and warming body, I wouldn’t totally jump to SJ+ at the moment.
Sorry, I don’t see a clear way forward given the information you have shared.
Let us know what you see and what happens.
Adina_Kletzel: August 30, 2020, 7:45am
12/01/2024, 12:12Brain tumors and UTI – Qiological Community
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KristinWisgirda:
I really am curious about how the rest of her system as been doing since it sounds like she had some other
significant symptoms like hot diarrhea, reflux, bloating and the double vision/blurry vision.
The hot diarrhea has been more under control – it flares up right after a chemo treatment and the acupuncture helps
with that.
The double vision goes up and down – sometimes better and sometimes worse but I dont really look to see that get
better since the tumor is sitting in that area of her brain…
Update
Kid + : It caused her to be constipated!! So never underestimate the power of consolidation…
Along with the constipation it also cause a pain in her lower right abdomen
She only had a bowel movement 5 days after the acupuncture treatment after her next chemo treatment.
It also helped her stop with urine leakage and frequency but only 4 days after the treatment.
And she did have a night of burning in the bladder the second night after the treatment. But she said that the hot
water bottle helped after an hour even though it usually takes a couple of hours to help.
So my feeling was that even though Kid+ stopped the diarrhea and helped with the urine leakage it was not the
right channel because instead of balancing her it took her to the other extreme.
She also said that she was more irritable during the week after the treatment.
But she had good energy.
Next treatment: PC+
When she noted her irritability I explored with her more her emotions and she said that she used to be very irritable
and get angry a lot and she has worked on herself to be less angry.
Given the irritabiltiy, her very red tongue and cheeks and the fact that the GB meridian runs through the head –
right near occipital region (vision), and her left sided issues, I decided to supplement PC.
She said the treatment felt like ‘nirvana’ to her… so we will see what happens…
I just want to note – that I have discussed her emotions with her before but 1. She has a very poor english so it is
challenging to understand her 2. She is on cannabis for pain so the picture she paints me is not always clear in
terms of where she is emotionally.
It is also very confusing that she has such a red tongue and face but heat helps her burning bladder and urination…
Clinic is hard!!12/01/2024, 12:12Brain tumors and UTI – Qiological Community
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KristinWisgirda: August 30, 2020, 7:39pm
Adina_Kletzel:
Clinic is hard!!
For sure! This lady has many sooo many challenges for her to live with and for you to figure out. Good luck to you
both.