Donley: April 15, 2019, 4:34am
Hello all,
I’m relating a Sa’am treatment I conducted on myself this evening. I had a varicose vein located around Sp 7 on
my left leg pretty much right on the Sp channel. I also had a small cluster of spider veins over Gb 35,36 on the left
leg. I noticed the varicose veins about 10 days ago. At first I didn’t think much of it and attributed it to phlegm
because of indulging my Spleen while I was studying the last couple months. About 5 days ago I noticed twinges
of slight pain. Yesterday it began to actually hurt, and today my leg began to feel cold. Upon inspection of my leg I
noticed the spider veins on the Gb channel. I had never noticed them before and it looked like a quarter to half-
dollar sized bruise of about 3 days.
I’m not sure where I heard it (It was in a Qiological podcast, but I cannot recall which one), but I remember it
being discussed that Pc controlled the veins. With that info and knowing Pc is paired with Gb. This lead me to
Tonify the Pc 100% Sa’am. 4 needles on the left side. 20 minutes with needles in. Immediately after inserting and
manipulating Lv 1 (no surprise) my leg had noticeable heat sensation traveling upward. Pc 3 was the last needle I
place, and while I was twisting it, I noticed a changed feeling in Kd 10.
I pulled the needles and could faintly see about a dime size area where the spider veins were, and the varicose veins
was gone. After about 5 minutes after the treatment the dime size area was reduced to less than a centimeter and
only slight discoloration.
Success! Those Jing wells though! I’m going to have to get better/more confident placing then manipulating those
points. I’m used to just darting them in quickly then forgetting about them.
Donley: April 15, 2019, 2:58pm
Quick update: Next morning the same varicose vein and spider veins are back but no pain and no cold sensation.
Improvement for sure, but, of course, more treatments are necessary.
dcvalley: April 15, 2019, 4:16pm
Wow, thanks that is food for thought. Can anyone else out there confirm the PC vein correspondence? That is a
new one for me.30/01/2024, 13:40Self Treatment – Varicose Veins – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/self-treatment-varicose-veins/97/print2/7
KristinWisgirda: April 16, 2019, 10:55pm
Thanks for sharing your case.
Scouring my notes from all the available Sa’am info sources, I don’t see a reference to P controlling the veins.
I wonder if the change was created more through the channel association, P balancing out GB?
For varicosities in Sa’am, my first thought is tx SI. Nice to know that location specific treatment can work.
ngmatthews #5October 4, 2021, 5:15pm
I also remember the mention of Pc controlling veins, which made sense to me at the time. Very nice treatment
effect! I wonder if you have other diagnostic indicators that show that you are a GB excess-ish type? Or is this just
a single symptom?
Donley: April 22, 2019, 2:18am
@KristinWisgirda, it wasn’t mentioned in Sa’am. I heard it in a Qiological episode, but I cannot remember which
one. Like @ngmatthews said, when I heard it it made sense to me at the time.
Aculaura, I am a recovering Gb excess type! If you look down the Zhen overview I match on all except one. It is
also interesting that this just came up this spring and I have never had had anything like it in the past. I have not
treated it again. The Gb channel is completely clear now and there is only a small bulge still visible near Sp 7. I’ll
do another treatment to see if it resolves.
michaelmax: April 25, 2019, 3:25am
First time I’ve hear the connection between PC and veins. Somewhere I heard someone (how’s that for utterly non-
specific?) say that veins were jueyin in nature. So in this way connecting PC to veins makes sense.
And of course, if clinical results show an improvement, then it is worth seeing if it works with other people as well.
So thanks @Donley for this.
Donley: April 30, 2019, 1:14am
You mean @michaelmax that you don’t remember every part of every interview you’ve conducted? I can’t
imagine why not! That’s only 200 +/- hour long talks!
I remember you and your guest talking about seeing treatments where the patients would stand on newspapers and
treatment consisted of bleeding the veins and letting them bleed down the legs onto the paper…30/01/2024, 13:40Self Treatment – Varicose Veins – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/self-treatment-varicose-veins/97/print3/7
michaelmax: April 30, 2019, 1:34am
Donley:
I remember you and your guest talking about seeing treatments where the patients would stand on newspapers
and treatment consisted of bleeding the veins and letting them bleed down the legs onto the paper…
Oh boy @Donley, I don’t remember the guest…maybe Greg Zimmerman as we talked a lot about Taiwan and that
is where I saw this treatment.
I spend some time there studying with a Dong Style acupuncturist. I didn’t stay more than a few weeks. It was just
too weird. First, he’d do this group healing thing where people would talk about a problem, he would write
something on a piece of paper. Then burn it with odd hand motions.
He also was into bleeding. I mean serious streaming of blood. He’d lance areas, often on the truck and back and
then apply cups with continuous suction. There were buckets of blood. And yes, people standing on, or sitting with
newspapers under them catching the blood.
I was used to things in Taiwan usually not being quite up the standard of “cleanliness” we would have in the West,
but the amount of blood and loose set of sanitation standards rather flipped me out.
Had I stayed I probably could have learned some interesting and potentially useful things. However the mantra
“blood borne pathogens” had me heading for the door after a short time.
ngmatthews: October 4, 2021, 5:15pm
I have learned this technique from Susan Johnson. She learned it in a clinic in China where she and her teacher
Miriam Lee visited. I have the patient stand facing the side of the table, feet on a pile of wet newspapers on a trash
bag. I then bleed (Bl 40) in a number of places across the back of the knee, using an 18g hypodermic. I just let the
blood run down the back of the legs from each site until it stops on its own. Then there is a fair bit of cleanup using
a lot of wet paper towels. !00% of the patients treated have said that their low back pain is miraculously better.
Susan said that at the clinic she visited they also bled Lung 5 and Tai Yang in this way. Those were the only 3
points they bled. Patients came from 2-3 days walk a way for treatment. I reserve it only for the patients who know
me well who are in a lot of pain.
KristinWisgirda: May 7, 2019, 8:45pm
ngmatthews:30/01/2024, 13:40Self Treatment – Varicose Veins – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/self-treatment-varicose-veins/97/print4/7
!00% of the patients treated have said that their low back pain is miraculously better.
Interesting! I wonder if a certain species of Heart excess patient needs UB40 strongly drained like this to
supplement the UB.
It is interesting to look at other treatments through the lens of Sa’am.
michaelmax: May 9, 2019, 1:57am
@KristinWisgirda, yes it is fun and helpful to view other treatments through the Sa’am lenses and see how they
work and how we can expand our understanding.
Taran: July 6, 2019, 3:58pm
I think that veins/jueyin connection was in the episode 59 with Jonathon Chang.
KristinWisgirda: July 6, 2019, 7:12pm
Jonathan Chang practices in the style of Wang Ju-Yi of Applied Channel Theory, channel palpation fame. Not
Saam.
Donley: July 7, 2019, 1:37am
YES, @Taran! Thank you, that was the episode! Around the 1:02:00 mark is where the Jue Yin – vessels
conversation really starts up!
You are absolutely correct @KristinWisgirda, he doesn’t use Sa’am. I knew the conversation was not a Sa’Am
conversation where I had heard it, but it fits nicely with Sa’Am. I have used the PC connection with the vessels a
couple of times now with success. I am trying to use Wang Ju-Yi’s palpation methods with each Sa’am treatment,
and I love it!
1 Like30/01/2024, 13:40Self Treatment – Varicose Veins – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/self-treatment-varicose-veins/97/print5/7
Taran: July 7, 2019, 2:41am
Awesome, @Donley! I had a feeling it was from a non-Sa’am context. Nice one on palpation and Sa’am together!
michaelmax: July 7, 2019, 3:10pm
Donley:
I have used the PC connection with the vessels a couple of times now with success. I am trying to use Wang Ju-
Yi’s palpation methods with each Sa’am treatment, and I love it!
I think it is really helpful to know what “markers” we already use regularly to make sense of things in clinic. They
already guide us in our work and getting feedback on how the needles are affecting our patients. So we can
certainly use those markers as a way to access the effectiveness and correctness of our Saam treatments
KristinWisgirda #18July 8, 2019, 12:29am
Donley:
I have used the PC connection with the vessels a couple of times now with success.
Just to be devil’s advocate here: was there a Saam explanation for why these treatments could have worked?
Donley:
I am trying to use Wang Ju-Yi’s palpation methods with each Sa’am treatment, and I love it!
I find it really helpful too. Toby’s notes that channel changes whether subjective, palpable or skin level are all
useful for diagnosing via Saam.
Donley: July 8, 2019, 4:14am
KristinWisgirda:
Just to be devil’s advocate here: was there a Saam explanation for why these treatments could have worked?30/01/2024, 13:40Self Treatment – Varicose Veins – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/self-treatment-varicose-veins/97/print6/7
Good question, Kristin. It was a combination of factors which lead me to originally treating with PC
supplementation. It occurred in the spring (Jue Yin), I was thinking of Varicose Veins being Wind (Jue Yin, again),
and having heard the PC relationship with the veins. I am not knowledgeable enough in Sa’am to really know if
this relationship jives, is indifferent, or is opposed.
Thoughts?
KristinWisgirda: July 8, 2019, 12:37pm
Donley:
a small cluster of spider veins over Gb 35,36 on the left leg.
Looking back to your original post, channel location is enough of an explanation as to why P+ treatment worked
from a Saam point of view. P+ treatment can be considered for channel problems on the P or the GB channels.
Donley:
It occurred in the spring (Jue Yin), I was thinking of Varicose Veins being Wind (Jue Yin, again), and having
heard the PC relationship with the veins.
None of these are relevant for Saam diagnosis and treatment as Toby is teaching it. For really learning the system,
it is so helpful to ground in the basic teaching first and recognize our speculations for what they are.
Piispan: September 16, 2019, 3:34pm
What an interesting conversation! @Donley I always tend to think of Spring as Shaoyang (nature and pathology)
so could be treated with Jueyin channels, however this may be what you meant. I am also very curious why you
equate Varicose Veins as Wind? And have you been treating varicose veins or spider veins that are outside the GB
and PC channels with PC+ ? Thank you for your updates!
@KristinWisgirda Could the bulging quality of the varicose vein be considered GB excess, even when not on the
GB or PC channel?
KristinWisgirda: September 16, 2019, 4:01pm
Piispan:30/01/2024, 13:40Self Treatment – Varicose Veins – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/self-treatment-varicose-veins/97/print7/7
Could the bulging quality of the varicose vein be considered GB excess, even when not on the GB or PC
channel?
For varicosities in the lower body, gravity and congestion of blood flow in the channel are much better
explanations than the busting out of GB excess.
A big bulging vein on the head or shoulder, where blood and fluids don’t normally pool, would give weight to a
GB excess diagnosis, but I would still want to see other signs.
Donley: September 21, 2019, 9:28pm
@Piispan, Yes the Shaoyang/Spring relationship is what originally drove my thinking. I was thinking wind
because the varicosities were come and go and I could feel “fluttering” in the actual vein itself. I have not treated
varicose veins outside the GB channels.