George_Mandler: February 27, 2020, 2:40pm
(I couldn’t decide whether to post here or in the Qiological podcast category but it seemed logical to post in a
Sa’am category.)
Michael’s beginners mind interview had my wheels turning and I am curious about your take. My thoughts:
Interesting that Andreas uses Sa’am on one side and then may do some other style on the other. I am incredibly
apprehensive about mixing these treatments styles as I have seen good results go sideways when I did too much.
I do mix channels and may do a partial Sa’am treatment on the opposite side to support the primary side.
(Daniel I know you’ve shared about treating BL Shu points after Sa’am)
For channel issues Andreas gave an example of shoulder pain on SJ meridian. He immediately went to tonifying
SJ+ whereas we take the archetype into consideration and possibly we may tonify the LR+ if it fits.
The idea of choosing a point based on the 3 characteristics of the point – (meridian, Wu Xing, Liu Qi) – is cool
and I can see how possibly it can expand into some points to choose within what we have learned.
He seemed to be using Sa’am based on TCM pairs where he gave an example of treating back pain on extension
with the LU channel. I recall a question over a year ago to Toby about the TCM pairing and he said he doesn’t
use it in this system. When I first started Sa’am I was thinking of TCM pairing but have kept within the Sa’am
pairings. Do others consider the TCM pairings and found consistent clinical usefulness? WWTD
Comparing the 2 Sa’am books I own I am grateful for how Toby has presented the archetypes in Sunin Doam’s
Sa’am system. I find there is a gracefulness and a heart connecting approach in Toby’s teachings that is missing in
other Sa’am methods I’ve explored.
Daniel: February 28, 2020, 12:23pm
Hi George. Yes, I was going to post after listening to that podcast. Thanks for getting the conversation going. I was
surprised mostly to hear no mention of the counterbalancing pairs that form such a core of the Sa’Am ‘style’ Toby
is teaching us. I am finding those pairs (and the insights and interpretations into our patients they open up) to have
a precision power unrivalled in any other acupuncture system or approach I have worked with. They seem to
facilitate a profound clinical elegance.
With the patient lying face-up, I have been a complete purist – with perhaps only three or four cases in the past 8
months where I have done two Sa’Am supplementations – one on the right, one on the left – all of my treatments
have involved one side with one of the 12 possible supplementation treatments. But I must confess, I do often then
do something very simple and focused on the back – just one or two needles – usually pertaining to the front
treatment (the back shu or hua tuo jia ji often of the excess or deficiency identified and treated on the front) – and
usually based on palpation.30/01/2024, 11:41Podcast 128 Sa’am Scholar – w/Andreas Bruch – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/podcast-128-saam-scholar-w-andreas-bruch/912/print2/8
I am so thankful – this system we are learning here seems to be so elegant, so powerful, so complete and such a
remarkable clinical portal into our patients – I feel my only limitations are not the system but my skill and capacity
to deploy it well.
KristinWisgirda: February 28, 2020, 1:24pm
It is a comfort to be reminded that Toby didn’t just make this stuff up.
George_Mandler:
Michael’s beginners mind interview
Kudos to Michael for taking this approach which gave Andreas an opportunity to give us a fresh take. He couldn’t
possibly explain the whole system within the hour format so omissions might have for simplicity sake and not
necessarily a different approach to the system. He might have also chosen the simplest, easiest to understand case
study instead of delving into the more complex relationship of the channel pairs. I’ll be interested to look at any
English resources Andreas might produce.
George_Mandler:
The idea of choosing a point based on the 3 characteristics of the point – (meridian, Wu Xing, Liu Qi) – is cool
and I can see how possibly it can expand into some points to choose within what we have learned.
I am taking the “3 characteristics” as an invitation to reflect on the nature of the points and maybe deepen my
understanding of what is being added when we supplement. I am hesitant to break up the point combos and
remember Toby’s instruction that the 4 point combo provide a clear directive in an inherently unstable system. The
system is so powerful and my skill with it is basic at best. I fear muddying the waters even more. Yesterday I found
out that SI+ made a very pretty, thin boned dizzy girl’s SI channel shoulder pain WORSE for 3 days. What did I
miss? She also has bad dysmenorrhea. True she didn’t settle but she didn’t want to be in my office to start and she
had such a hard time with the needles. And I had such a mental block to needling here again, never mind using K+
for her. So much to learn and observe both from the patients and my blocks to effective practice. I notice that I am
not the most confident practitioner when I treat teenagers.
Daniel: February 28, 2020, 4:19pm
KristinWisgirda:
the 4 point combo provide a clear directive in an inherently unstable system
This gets powerfully reinforced in my clinical experience every day.30/01/2024, 11:41Podcast 128 Sa’am Scholar – w/Andreas Bruch – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/podcast-128-saam-scholar-w-andreas-bruch/912/print3/8
Raui: March 7, 2020, 12:16am
I didnt realize there was a topic on this already so I made another topic in the podcast section. Since this is the
earlier topic I will post it here:
So I just finished listening to the interview with Andrea’s and, having a keen interest in saam, found it an
interesting take. So my question is to Michael or anyone else who may have tried some of the ideas in clinic. There
was talk of say the LI being Metal – Dry and Yangming – Cool so when you have say a patient who presents damp
and heat we could use LI. I thought that this was potentially a great aid for myself in the Taiyin/Yangming
dynamics as sometimes I find it hard to feel confident in a saam diagnosis when, for example, the patient is
definitely damp interiorly but doesnt present with any overtly moist or dry signs exteriorly. In these cases I tend to
use other methods and while I usually get results from that I would like to feel more confident in this aspect of
diagnosis with Saam because when I get a Saam diagnosis down correctly the results are brilliant.
Have I understood what Andreas was saying correctly or have I misunderstood something? Any feedback/insights
would be greatly appreciated!
KristinWisgirda: March 7, 2020, 12:44pm
Raui:
LI being Metal – Dry and Yangming – Cool so when you have say a patient who presents damp and heat we
could use LI.
This is no different from Toby’s teaching, except that we have to evaluate interior/exterior as well to be sure it is a
good match and know that Stomach or some another channel isn’t more appropriate. Andreas might use this
thinking too- hard to know from a 1 hour interview.
Raui:
the patient is definitely damp interiorly but doesnt present with any overtly moist or dry signs exteriorly.
You can ask whether or not the patient could handle drying the exterior with LI+. Or if the patient needs the
descending action of ST+. Or maybe the moving aspect of SI+ to resolve the dampness.
The more familiar you are with the profiles of each of the channels the more confident you will be to use them.
Experience will further refine your understanding.
I hope this helps but I’m not sure if I have addressed your question.
2 Likes30/01/2024, 11:41Podcast 128 Sa’am Scholar – w/Andreas Bruch – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/podcast-128-saam-scholar-w-andreas-bruch/912/print4/8
Raui: March 7, 2020, 10:35pm
Thanks @KristinWisgirda!
Yes I do remember Toby talking about this but it seemed that Andreas put more emphasis on this aspect of the
pairings than I felt was put in the course where I felt the emphasis was on interior/exterior dry/damp for the
Taiyin/Yangming dynamic. Like you said though, it’s hard to tell from a 1hr interview.
From the second part of your reply I feel like maybe I am putting emphasis on things or getting unnecessarily
caught up on certain details with your comment re questioning whether they need some descending St or could
handle the dry exterior of LI. Clinic is a different beast to theory and sometimes I find that people fit the body type
perfectly but other times I find myself having reservations, particularly with the exterior characteristic. Often it is
very clear on interior dry/damp but the exterior characteristic is more elusive/not as defined. I feel like I may have
put too much emphasis on the patient fitting the body type too strictly at the cost of other aspects of the pairing
dynamics. Its certainly given me something to think about.
Thanks again Kristin!
michaelmax: March 9, 2020, 2:39pm
George_Mandler:
Interesting that Andreas uses Sa’am on one side and then may do some other style on the other. I am incredibly
apprehensive about mixing these treatments styles as I have seen good results go sideways when I did too
much. I do mix channels and may do a partial Sa’am treatment on the opposite side to support the primary side.
(Daniel I know you’ve shared about treating BL Shu points after Sa’am)
Toby has also talked about being able to mix something else if you want to on the other side.
However, I’ve found that to really learn the system. Stick with one side. Stick with tonification. Stick with it until
you can use the system enough so the system teaches you how to use it. Then mix it up if you like. But don’t mix
other things in too soon, or you’ll rob yourself of the opportunity to experience the power of this method, and to
tune your perception to using it.
George_Mandler:
For channel issues Andreas gave an example of shoulder pain on SJ meridian. He immediately went to
tonifying SJ+ whereas we take the archetype into consideration and possibly we may tonify the LR+ if it fits.
Sometimes channel, sometimes…
Yes, we have options.
George_Mandler:30/01/2024, 11:41Podcast 128 Sa’am Scholar – w/Andreas Bruch – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/podcast-128-saam-scholar-w-andreas-bruch/912/print5/8
He seemed to be using Sa’am based on TCM pairs where he gave an example of treating back pain on
extension with the LU channel. I recall a question over a year ago to Toby about the TCM pairing and he said
he doesn’t use it in this system. When I first started Sa’am I was thinking of TCM pairing but have kept within
the Sa’am pairings. Do others consider the TCM pairings and found consistent clinical usefulness?
Sometimes I got with a yin/yang pairing like LV to treat to GB. It’s one of the options if I need to toggle away from
using PC.
I think the key thing for me is this— what can I use from the library of what I know, to create some balance in the
system? The Saam diagnostics are very helpful and often give us tremendous insight into our patients. The basic
four needles are a powerful method. But… we can take the diagnostics, get a clear picture of our patient and then
choose any way of applying needles in service of working the counterbalances. At least at this moment in time…
this is my sense of things.
michaelmax: March 9, 2020, 2:42pm
KristinWisgirda:
I am taking the “3 characteristics” as an invitation to reflect on the nature of the points and maybe deepen my
understanding of what is being added when we supplement
I’ve been experimenting with these a bit. For example, if I want to really dry someone out, then LI1… the metal
point on the yangming metal channel is “triple dry.” (yang, metal, yangming)
I’m seeing if one point like this might be helpful, but I’m still in the initial stages of experimentation so I don’t
have much to say about it at the moment.
George_Mandler: March 11, 2020, 1:21am
michaelmax:
the metal point on the yangming metal channel is “triple dry.” (yang, metal, yangming)
I’m seeing if one point like this might be helpful, but I’m still in the initial stages of experimentation
This is something I am currently contemplating after hearing Andreas’ interview, yet struggle to make sense of how
to use it clinically. In your example of LI1 which is triple dry and makes sense. Yet LI1 is tonified for Bladder
supplementation to bring water into the system. Does this mean the points are pleomorphic where when used alone
they an have a different effect than if used in conjunction with their corresponding antiquity points? Certainly this
does seem true.30/01/2024, 11:41Podcast 128 Sa’am Scholar – w/Andreas Bruch – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/podcast-128-saam-scholar-w-andreas-bruch/912/print6/8
Daniel: March 11, 2020, 2:21am
But the Sa’Am system fundamentally employs mother-child and controlling relationships to achieve its effects –
Nan Jing needling dynamics – to the very core. As I know we all know, to dry inside and outside, we support Large
Intestine – but by (a) supporting its mother and (b) diminishing influences that are controlling it. The intention is
drying, but the strategy is through concurrently enhancing and diminishing the pertinent dynamic relationships.
Putting the indirect dynamic relationships into play, rather than just the direct hit. LI 1 just being ‘triple dry’ makes
no use of relationship dynamics – its just an alleged direct quality of a point – presumably needling it directly to
achieve the direct quality was NOT the chosen strategy by the Sa’Am developers for a good reason? Certainly, the
unrivalled power I know I have observed with this system suggests the 5 phase dynamic relationship approach is
just that , more powerful. I imagine in my mind its the difference between kicking a ball directly in a straight line
versus putting a strong spin on it and kicking it in an edgy arc. A curve ball with a spin versus just a throw. It does
make sense. If you just give a kid some money to buy some food, the result is not likely to be all that good. He’ll
probably just go chips and pop. If you give his mother some money to buy and cook some food and feed her child
AND you distract the over-domineering toxic uncle next door who is messing with the kid, the thriving of the child
is likely to be much more impressive.
KristinWisgirda: March 11, 2020, 11:56am
4 points do 1 thing.
Thanks for the elegant analysis Daniel. I couldn’t decide which of Daniel’s lines to quote. I recommend reading
Daniel’s post again.
Using all 4 points is a much more stable input than needling 1 or 2 of the points.
The stability and direction come from getting the whole dynamic working in the direction of supporting that
dynamic/channel system.
George_Mandler: March 11, 2020, 12:25pm
Thank you for laying it out so clearly Daniel. I love the kid and food analogy with mother and uncle.
michaelmax: March 11, 2020, 7:05pm
George_Mandler:
. Does this mean the points are pleomorphic where when used alone they an have a different effect than if used
in conjunction with their corresponding antiquity points? Certainly this does seem true.30/01/2024, 11:41Podcast 128 Sa’am Scholar – w/Andreas Bruch – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/podcast-128-saam-scholar-w-andreas-bruch/912/print7/8
Pleomorphic… Love learning new words. And yes… I suspect so. Just like an herb can have a “single” function,
but when combined with another then the synergy creates something else. That is my working hypothesis.
michaelmax: March 11, 2020, 7:09pm
Daniel:
presumably needling it directly to achieve the direct quality was NOT the chosen strategy by the Sa’Am
developers for a good reason? Certainly, the unrivalled power I know I have observed with this system
suggests the 5 phase dynamic relationship approach is just that , more powerful.
Agreed that the relationships involved all bring a dynamic and stable power to the issue at hand.
For me looking at the individual points as Andreas suggested is an inquiry for me into how I might extend my
“Saam thinking” into other aspects of working with the five phases and six jing
adambroder: March 20, 2020, 3:05am
I too have been inspired by the suggestion of “triple qi” (so to speak) points. I’ve laid out the ones that fall into this
category as follows.
Taiyang—Cold—Water=UB66
Yangming—Dry—Metal=LI1
Shaoyang—Ministerial Fire=SJ6
Taiyin—Damp—Earth=SP3
Shaoyin—Heat—Imperial Fire=HT8
Jueyin—Wind—Wood=LR1
Please let me know if I’ve made a mistake in working these out. I wanted to see what power they may have, so
yesterday I needled two points as a test. I have a persistent spasm in my left shoulder region, could be SI channel,
could be upper reaches of the UB channel. I don’t know what’s causing it but it’s been around for close to a year
and part of me thinks it’s my body beginning to create a frozen shoulder (not Chinese medicine I know) because
there’s some tight fascia pulling on the muscle/muscles that are in spasm. I’ve tried many things including Sa’am
on myself to get some relief. At times I can get it to go away for a couple hours, a couple days, or a couple weeks.
Anyway, yesterday I drained LR1 while supplementing SJ6, both on the right, and it took the spasm away for about
24 hours. Earlier this afternoon I supplemented HT8 and it went away for a couple of hours but it’s now back (wish
I’d gotten more bang for my buck with that painful needle). I will continue playing with these points on myself and
thinking about them, and what they can teach me about the Sa’am system and the nature of points. Appreciate the
discussion so far along these lines.
amyjenner #17March 25, 2020, 2:55pm30/01/2024, 11:41Podcast 128 Sa’am Scholar – w/Andreas Bruch – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/podcast-128-saam-scholar-w-andreas-bruch/912/print8/8
I too have chronic upper back issues. Here is what I have found to be most helpful…not an acupuncture suggestion
but I often see that as an over use problem with too much sitting, computer, concentration on things in front of us…
Tends to result in a postural problem causing over stretching in some areas, tightness in others. My most successful
remedy is actually upper back posture exercises, and practice aligning the spine meaning focus on lifting Du 20 so
the weight of the head is sitting over the spine rather that a chin forward that we slip into when not paying
attention. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=back+intelligence+forward+head. This guy had
some good ideas on the alignment and some stretches to help.
I often give this link to px for exercises https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/5-exercises-will-strengthen-
your-back-reduce-pain-ncna849911
Hope it helps
KristinWisgirda: March 25, 2020, 4:51pm
Corrective exercise is definitely a favorite therapy of mine. A balanced diet of movement is as necessary as a
balanced diet of food.
I like the NBC exercises. Recommendations from NBC will be more accessible and convincing for some patients.