empiricalpoint: March 28, 2020, 8:59pm
Hello,
I got permission to post these photos. I have been helping an acupuncturist colleague with his 18y.o. who recently
has come down with what looks like corona virus. She came home from college last week. The family has been
social distancing but 4 days ago his daughter came down 101.9 fever for two days, aches, chills, fatigue. Swollen
tongue with a coat, and a slippery pulse. He has her on herbs and I have been giving him SAAM point combos to
needle.
Here are the first pictures
empiricalpoint: March 28, 2020, 9:04pm
Started with liver+ to cool and support blood
Next day
Feels hot, dark urine, thermometer temp has come down 100. No cough
He used UB+
empiricalpoint: March 28, 2020, 9:07pm
Today. Looks like some of the heat has come down. Feeling less restless. Still dark urine
repeated UB+
Am thinking about starting to dry things out tomorrow LI or St if the fluids damage starts looking better
KristinWisgirda: March 29, 2020, 12:24am
Thanks for the case. What a great opportunity to use Sa am!
With the mix of damp and dry and still some obvious heat, I wonder if SI+ is a strategy to consider, if there are no
reasons not too. This might be safer than straight up drying with LI+ if urine is still dark and the tongue coat still
has such peeled spots. It is hard to tell how greasy versus dry the coat is, though the coat seems like it is getting
thicker.
Please let us know how it goes.
amyjenner: March 29, 2020, 12:32am
Thanks so much for sharing that. i ll look forward to hearing how it goes
empiricalpoint #6March 29, 2020, 12:40am30/01/2024, 11:38Corona virus and SAAM – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/corona-virus-and-saam/967/print6/18
Great idea!
I will post when I get the new tongue pic tomorrow
George_Mandler: March 29, 2020, 11:50am
Nice Sharon – I have no doubt if we could treat our patients with Saam we could have a tremendous positive
impact. Liu Lihong s article states he was impressed how helpful acupuncture was for Covid19. So great you could
guide your friend.
With the tongue pictures I have experienced that they can be deceiving depending on the light/shading. I have seen
tongues on my patients look like different tongues on a zoom session depending on what light they are standing in.
If patients take a picture for me I have them take it in different lights and get a side angle shot too. A tongue body
can look a different color as can coating.
This is not an always by any means, but it is strange how some tongues can be chameleon like.
empiricalpoint: March 29, 2020, 1:11pm
I have also asked for clarification around color, as well, to make sure we aren t chasing any untruths.
empiricalpoint: March 29, 2020, 3:33pm
Dad reports – I see the coat is starting to clear and it s less red overall.
Sleep was fine. Urination a bit darker than normal. Temp was normal at bed time last night for second night in a
row and this morning actually low which is normal for her. Pulse is still a bit excess and slippery in St/Sp but
overall much calmer and less slippery. Li/Lu much better. BL/Ki low.
I know a lot of this diagnostic criteria is not germane to the SAAM discussion, but it s what we have since I am
going through an intermediary.30/01/2024, 11:38Corona virus and SAAM – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/corona-virus-and-saam/967/print7/18
Taking Kristen s recommendation and going with SI+ today
KristinWisgirda #10March 29, 2020, 5:15pm
Thanks, George, for the tongue pic side angle suggestion which I wouldn t have though of myself.
empiricalpoint: March 29, 2020, 7:03pm
Pics after 20 min SI+ tx30/01/2024, 11:38Corona virus and SAAM – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/corona-virus-and-saam/967/print8/1830/01/2024, 11:38Corona virus and SAAM – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/corona-virus-and-saam/967/print9/1830/01/2024, 11:38Corona virus and SAAM – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/corona-virus-and-saam/967/print10/18
empiricalpoint: March 30, 2020, 6:47pm
Today30/01/2024, 11:38Corona virus and SAAM – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/corona-virus-and-saam/967/print11/18
KristinWisgirda: March 30, 2020, 9:40pm
Thanks for the pictures. How is she feeling?
empiricalpoint: March 31, 2020, 3:34pm
Better, urine now clear, very mild sore throat (more dry) and tired
Any next step recommendations?30/01/2024, 11:38Corona virus and SAAM – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/corona-virus-and-saam/967/print12/18
empiricalpoint: March 31, 2020, 3:55pm
So, I ve worked the taiyang angle of this. Trying to figure out where to go next but feeling a bit unsure based on
Toby s idea from another post that the stomach might make things internal. So I get myself into some knots
regarding which channels are contenders for pushing outward like the shaoyang (GB or TH) vs going deep and
inward (jueyin). Is this helpful or am I just going down a rabbit hole?
KristinWisgirda: March 31, 2020, 7:36pm
Now that the big event is resolving and symptoms aren t dramatic (unless the tiredness is dramatic), you have to
look to the big picture to find the next step.
Have you asked questions about appetite, thirst, bowel movements, bloating, skin moisture/sweating, felt body
temperature, moods,menses, sleep, body morphology, etc? I know you aren t needling the patient but you just can t
work without more info.
empiricalpoint:30/01/2024, 11:38Corona virus and SAAM – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/corona-virus-and-saam/967/print13/18
So I get myself into some knots regarding which channels are contenders for pushing outward like the
shaoyang (GB or TH) vs going deep and inward (jueyin). Is this helpful or am I just going down a rabbit hole?
Sharon Weizenbaum views our medicine as working to restore body function so that it can resiliently process
whatever comes its way. (I hope I said that correctly Sharon :). Working from this view is much more effective than
looking at the relationship of a pathogen with shaoyang or jue yin. Why would you want to push out or go
deep at this point?
Aiming to restore the body s mechanism instead of orienting to fighting the pathogen is entirely in-step with
Saam. As well, if you are working with Saam treatment, you have to work with Saam diagnostics. We just don t
have enough info here to know what to do.
empiricalpoint: March 31, 2020, 8:37pm
Working on getting more info. thank you
empiricalpoint #18March 31, 2020, 11:17pm
Skin dry. Light sensitivity. Alternating constipation and diarrhea. Generally poor digestion. Very aware of
surroundings.
KristinWisgirda: April 1, 2020, 11:20am
There are a bunch of possible strategies for her now. What is is the most prominent part of her presentation? What
is most troubling to her?
Clinic is hard. Virtual clinic is way, way harder!
Daniel: April 1, 2020, 12:06pm
From that short list, my first inclination would be more of the dark cool moist forest . . . .
KristinWisgirda: April 1, 2020, 1:56pm
@Daniel does that suggestion show more of a proclivity to seeing and treating SJ excess? I have noticed in myself
tendencies to wanting to see and treat certain presentations more than others. This hasn t always been helpful. 30/01/2024, 11:38Corona virus and SAAM – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/corona-virus-and-saam/967/print14/18
What if her skin was really, really dry? What if generally poor digestion meant she had poor appetite? What if
being tired her body felt heavy and she was in a fog?
Daniel: April 1, 2020, 6:17pm
Hi Kristin . . . too funny – I was just going to start up a topic here about the matter of whether we tend to have
proclivities towards certain patterns (for a host of reasons) and what we must do to try to counter those! yes, its a
good point. for sure – perhaps she is more on the Lung-St or Sp-LI axes. (Interestingly, I have a patient right now –
one of the few I am still seeing – her situation is so so dire) who exhibits radically extreme dryness – and yet she is
responding much better to the cool moistening of Liver supplementation than either Spleen or Lung
supplementation – I will post her case shortly). Clinic is hard!!!
empiricalpoint: April 1, 2020, 9:50pm
I went with ST. She reported today she had the best bowel movement she has had in weeks and her abdomen feels
better.30/01/2024, 11:38Corona virus and SAAM – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/corona-virus-and-saam/967/print15/1830/01/2024, 11:38Corona virus and SAAM – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/corona-virus-and-saam/967/print16/18
KristinWisgirda: April 1, 2020, 10:00pm
Wonderful! Glad to hear that she is on the mend and that Stomach was helpful. Saam works when you use it on its
own terms.
@Daniel looking forward to hear about your radically extreme dryness lady.
empiricalpoint: April 2, 2020, 9:07pm
Feels back to normal today!
Go team SAAM!!!
joymayi: April 2, 2020, 9:42pm
empiricalpoint:30/01/2024, 11:38Corona virus and SAAM – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/corona-virus-and-saam/967/print17/18
Better, urine now clear, very mild sore throat (more dry) and tired
Any next step recommendations?
@empiricalpoint. Such good case and progress! Would you mind if i copy this case and photo and show my
teacher in China?
empiricalpoint: April 2, 2020, 9:44pm
Let me get permission from the father/acupuncturist first, please. I will reach out to him now
joymayi: April 2, 2020, 9:55pm
Daniel:
proclivities
Thank you @empiricalpoint. Dr Song Bai Shan is the teacher of the young female doctor cured 30 cases in
Wuhan. I just translated his article back at end of Jan to English, happy to send the first draft if your college like to
see it.
KristinWisgirda: April 2, 2020, 9:56pm
I hope she knows how much prettier her tongue looks now.
Looks like overall her illness lasted 8-9 days.
Did she use any herbs or other therapies or just Saam?
joymayi: April 2, 2020, 9:57pm
Sorry i must did something wrong to quote Daniel s post was replying to Sharon.
empiricalpoint: April 2, 2020, 10:02pm
He got herbs from another practitioner. It was a combo of
Chai Ge Jie Ji Tang and Health Concerns Lonicera complex. Not sure if the CGJJT was premade or custom30/01/2024, 11:38Corona virus and SAAM – Sa’am Clinical Insights – Qiological Community
https://forum.qiological.com/t/corona-virus-and-saam/967/print18/18
granular.
empiricalpoint: April 2, 2020, 11:03pm
Hello, I spoke with the father. Both him and his daughter give their consent for you to use the information and
pictures. But also, please check with Michael, since this forum is his intellectual property.
joymayi: April 2, 2020, 11:20pm
Thank you Sharon, I will do that. Much appreciated!